Experts only - no "conspiracy theorists", please

tonyzackery

Okay, here's the deal: I'm 6'2" and 192lbs with 5% bodyfat. Just recently got into cycle racing in June of this year - cat 5, of course, at present. In the 6 months since getting on my bike, I've lost 20lbs of fat and a little muscle. (In a former life I was a college and professional football player which explains the muscle mass)

Anyway, my question for nutritionists or those that have actually accomplished what I am seeking, is this - Which is the best/fastest/easiest, etc... way to lose about 15lbs of upper body muscle - going low carb (to get into a ketonic state where my body is using fat and protein for fuel instead of carbohydrate), or going very low protein (training induced muscle protein breakdown but very little available for regenesis)?

I am at a quandry as to which is the best for me. I'm leaning to the very low carb route at present as it makes better sense to me, but I'm no expert and would like some more informed opinions or testimonials for those people that have experienced my situation and conquered it. Thanks for reading...

Tapeworm

My 2 cents.

Previously for work I was required to have a certain level of upper body strength so had a decent amount of muscle mass. After getting into triathlon and now cycling I was too heavy, especially when running long distance or cycling up hills.

Basically my path to loose the extra muscle mass was to firstly not use it. Muscle mass will fade over time if you don't use it, but how much of it and how long this takes will vary. For me is has taken about 15 months to drop 10kgs (81 - 71 kgs). This means no more weights workouts (see a thread about gyming to improve performance, make for interesting reading if you have the time). I do still use the gym, though this is core stability stuff (isometric) for my back.

I would advise not going into extremes of diet or working yourself to the point you are using muscle to keep yourself moving. The body is not selective on where the muscle comes from.

To loose a bit of extra fat I have simply reduced my overall energy but still maintaining a healthy diet, ie: fresh vegetables, fruit, fish, legumes etc. Small portions and lots of them, all weighed of course!

In short, by simply cycling a lot, eating a bit less and resting and my body is adapting to what it needs to do.

Of course if you want to be more than a casual racer in a short period of time you may need something more specialised, which would be out of my field, I only have minor qualifications for this sort of thing. Hope this helps.

Cheers.

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Ride like you mean it

vio765

about two years ago, i was in the same place you are in now. i was into weight lifting and built up a lot of muscle. then i didnt do anything for about 5-6 months and got fat. so i had to lose fat AND muscle to help kepp up with the skinny guys with similar experience with cycling. i decided to go with the low-carb diet because i got fat right out of high school and had success with it. however, it requires great discipline. but with most of the people on this forum being athletes to some degree, that prolly won't be a huge problem. lol. anyway....
the low-carb plan may help you lose lots of fat and muscle, but to lose it in one area and not another is possibly different for everyone. for me to lose upper-body mass and overall body fat, but keep the lower body mass intact required me to stay on the bike in my "off season" (when i would rather have been doing other aerobic activities) and performing lower-body lifting but no upper-body lifting at all. since the body will burn off muscle if it is not used; a low-carb diet, no upper-body lifting, lots of lower-body lifting, and still sufficient bike riding i got my results in about 6 months. i lost a total of 70 pounds. half was muscle and the other half was fat. i did a "miniture" repeat again recently and lost another 20 pounds (same muscle/fat ratio) and i am down to 153-154 pounds.
this is my experience based on my genetics and disposition. your results may be anything. but the low-carb diet is controversial (especially in this place). I considered it politically correct anorexia. my mood was poor, i was low on energy (close to or above LT) and formed dark circles around my eyes. frankly, i looked and acted like a junkie. but i knew the whole time it had a purpose and was only temporary. after a few days of eating normally, i was back to my balance. hope my experience helps yours.

tonyzackery

Thanks for the replies thus far. I appreciate hearing from others who have tackled this issue.

I am going use the low carb routine (which I have used before but found very difficult to stay on) because I believe it will definitely get me to my goal weight (180lbs) by the end of February '07.

Happy Holidays!!

vio765

i helpful tool that i used in losing weight via the low-carb method was a diet log. i tracked what i ate, when i ate it, grams of CHO, PRO, FAT. it was very hard to write down everything i ate and to measure anything that wasnt prepackaged, etc. but i soon began to work with the journal instead of against it. it really helped my discipline because i would want to eat something that wasnt allowed and when i went to write it down, i realized what i was about to do and that was that. the good news is that if you enter ketosis, your appetite will go down a lot. and i highly recommend buying some Keto sticks to check your ketone level. seeing the pink or red color on the stick is very motivating. just remember the purpose and you will be ok.

FrankBattle

We are roughly the same size (6' 3" @ 195). I wasn't into football, but was heavy into weightlifting. I like you, lost a ton of fat (down from a high of 275 about 2.5 years ago).

Disclaimer: I am not a nutritionist, nor am I certified trainer etc, I am just into my personal fitness and have been cycling for 2+ years actively.

So, I'll save the lengthy diatribe and say that what has continued to work for me is not to work the muscles. The problem is that it takes a very long time to atrophy (or "lose") those muscles. For example, I wore a 48 (sometimes 50) XL sportscoat; Now it's down to a 44 XL and it's all in the chest + shoulders.

All you can do with diet is to continue to get leaner. Muscle disappears only with [lack of] use. FWIW, I switched to only 10 - 15 lb dumbell sets for ridiculous reps (usually the length of a song on the iPod) to get even leaner. I haven't laid on a bench press bench in 3 years. Haven't done a push up in about the same time. With my physique (and sounds like yours), it doesn't take much to build muscles.

Interesting that, like you again, I had a target weight of 185 lbs. I had to give up at 190 lbs. I just couldn't put in any more energy into weight loss. I was not going the low carb thing at all (that's reserved for completely sedentary people, which cyclists are not); I used CalorieKing to count net calories. It worked great as long as I followed it to a tee. I kept track of expenditure with a Polar HRM. Going below 190 lbs was near impossible. So, now I am very used to eating well and am able to maintain at 195 - 200 lbs in the winter and 190 - 195 when I'm riding. I love food, so I'm sure that's not helping. But I feel really really good. My physicals have confirmed this too.

dockeen

You find pushups are a muscle building exercise for you?

The very high rep stuff seemed to help?

Wayne

FrankBattle

Yes, but only as part of a whole workout regimen.

Depends on what you mean by help. For me, after going so long not working out with weights in order to lose muscle, very high rep+low weight stuff served 2 purposes:

1. Added another facet to a stagnant routine. Allowed me to continue dropping weight (fat, I presume) once I'd reached the plateau.
2. Helped maintain muscle tone. So, my arms were not as big, but still defined.

#2 was only after about one year of .. nothing, weightswise. I wasn't necessarily after the stick figure arm or body, so some definition was still an option/necessity.

YMMV.

tonyzackery

Frank, it does sound like we are one and the same - I, too, have plateaued at 190ish. It has been very frustrating because to get to this point has been relatively easy and progressive. My body has definitely determined that this is where it's comfortable. I have to break through and that will take even more determination from me. I like to eat also and at 190, I can pretty much eat as I like to without much sacrifice. However, this regimen is not getting me to my goal weight. It's going to be difficult to give up most of my carb foods for awhile but I know the sense of accomplishment I will receive when I get some racing results will make the sacrifice all the more worthwhile...I will do it - get down to 180 in 2 months and I'll give you all the report...

FrankBattle

Right, it does take time. And it is doable. But it gets tougher past a certain point. I could tell a big difference on the bike with the loss. I suppose I could get down to 185, but I like where I am now.

We'll see though. I like challenges and results. 1 challenge was trying to see if I could maintain where I am without much [additional] work. So far so good.

Look forward to your report in a few months ..

dockeen

Do you do your high rep stuff every day?

Wayne

CapeRoadster

In terms of diet, muscle is lost by not eating a high enough protein (i.e., amino acid) diet, but that might not be the way to go since your lower body still needs it. If it were me, I'd skip the heavy upper body workouts and do a lot of low-weight/high rep upper body stuff. You need to develop a high amount of Type I (slow-twitch) muscle fiber in your upper body, and get rid of the Type II fiber (fast twitch). So, in essence, you must do high-rep/low-weight upper body exercises to do that. I don't think it's a diet thing as much as a training thing. You can't affect regional body parts through diet since nutrients travel systemically, but you definitely can do it through exercise. Make sense to you?

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I love France. I just hate Toulouse. I'd really hate to lose le Trek.

CapeRoadster

The low carb diet will be a disaster for you in the long run. You'll reach your goal weight, but the diet will not redistribute muscle the way you want it, and if you train a lot, low carb will rob your muscles of glycogen, much needed for recovery and good training.

You want Type I muscle fiber in the upper body, but you don't want it in your lower body, correct? It's a training issue, not a dietary one, all other things being equal. I know what I'm talking about. If you don't mind losing muscle in the lower body, do it your way.

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I love France. I just hate Toulouse. I'd really hate to lose le Trek.

CapeRoadster

And, btw, it's going to take longer to do it right than 8 weeks.

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I love France. I just hate Toulouse. I'd really hate to lose le Trek.