Ginseng

tonyzackery

Man, CapeRoadster and Ric Stern at it now...can't both of you get off your ego driven bandwagons and just agree to disagree????? You both tried to shoot me down/repudiate my position in a couple of threads I commented in. Now you two are going at it with each other. You guys are taking up a lot of space with your hot air (sigh and roll of eyes...). I'm sure I speak for many visitors to this site.

ric_stern/RST

Other than my grammatical mistake, i stand by what i said previously.

For clarity: ergogenic means to do more work (Lamb and Williams, Ergogenics Enhancements of Performance In Exercise and Sport, 1991). In terms of cycling performance, or athletic performance, that means producing more power output (in cycling) or greater velocity (in running), etc. That's why the authors in the first study (cited above) don't consider ginseng to be ergogenic. It may have other properties, but that wasn't what we were discussing.

Apart from the one study you cited where *untrained sedentary* people managed to last longer during an incremental test i can't find any (well designed) research showing an ergogenic effect. However, this study, potentially has methodological errors in it (i say potentially, as i don't have access to that paper and can't therefore read the methodology that was employed). But it's important to note that sedentary subjects were used, and that this has implications for trained athletes (i.e., the results may not transfer).

And, why will you be waiting for me at the finish line? Am i supposed to be scared? Does beating me in a race somehow invalidate what i said? Anyway, USA Cycling doesn't list a Dr Wright, so, of the list of Wrights on the site i don't know which one you are, and whether you'll be beating me or not (not that i really care whether you beat me or not).

Ric

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CapeRoadster

As for me, I was trying to help you, not "shoot you down". You asked for help, but then you seemed to already have a plan of action that was unyielding. Rhetorical stuff from you, in the end.

As for ric and me, we can take care of ourselves. I'm just trying to inject a little humour and a bit of a challenge into these sometimes otherwise stale threads, that's all. I don't think bandwidth will be an issue. I'm not sure you speak for anyone but yourself.

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I love France. I just hate Toulouse. I'd really hate to lose le Trek.

CapeRoadster

The word "ergogenic" has been defined in many ways, not just the limited ways in which the authors of your book have defined it. Merriam-Webster defines it as "enhancing physical performance", while others have defined it as this:

Wiki says:

I choose the broader definition, but so be it.

I didn't cite studies, I cited study ABSTRACTS. Glad you're calling a spade a spade regarding that. One must read the entire study to make comments. With a website like yours, I think you would be better served if you purchased the full-length articles and read the research, as to offer an informed position. Citing abstracts doesn't cut it in science, sorry.

And no, my saying "see you at the finish line" was meant to be a remark about those who aren't using PED's of any sort will likely be left in the dust. Said in jest, that's all. My belief is that the entire pro peloton is doped to the hilt. And no, I'm not the threatening type, nor am I juiced on so much testosterone so as not to know the difference. Beating you in a race (which I am certain I could not do) would definitely help to invalidate your opinions, however.

Integrative medicine is the future, and the studies on ginseng are quite promising. You still seem to have missed my point, however: absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence. I think you don't get that yet.

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I love France. I just hate Toulouse. I'd really hate to lose le Trek.

ric_stern/RST

Your definition is essentially the same as mine. That is you are looking at some method/manipulation that allows you to do more 'work'. (more work being a higher power output in cycling). If it doesn't allow you to generate more power it isn't ergogenic.

I'm not certain that a HR monitor could be classed as ergogenic (in fact you maybe able to define it as ergolytic). Essentially, HR training isn't optimal and could be ergolytic (depending on how it was used).



usually, i do read the studies. Obviously, the abstract is a brief (or should be) review of the paper in hand. In the instance above, i don't have that paper, and by looking at the methodology/results/data presented in the abstract, i ain't in the slightest bit interested in reading such a study.



see above. i'm obviously not going to purchase every paper i may see in abstract form. i would be destitute before long. so, i make a decision based on what i already know on a subject, and the info presented in the abstract. if you want to fund me to read every paper, whose abstract i read, then i can send you my bank details.



i never said it did.



while, no doubt there are some/many doped to the hilt, i would suggest that you should moderate your comments that it is all pro riders. There are pros i work/have worked with who i am certain (or as certain as i can be given that i don't live and follow them 24/7) don't take drugs. I don't believe you can 'tar' all people the same because a subset of those people have done something.



I think you've missed the point. I still haven't suggested whether i think ginseng or other herbs are good, bad, or indifferent. all i have said is that there are no good data available (i.e., peer reviewed, randomised placebo double blind crossover and counterbalanced, etc) using trained endurance athletes showing an ergogenic effect. I then pointed out that there were papers showing no effect (when a study was performed as above).

Lastly, the stuff you cited are full papers. Each paper has an abstract at the beginning. Most research isn't freely available (i.e., you have to pay for it: see my 'complaint' above), hence you can only link to the abstract of the paper. However, i have no idea whether you've read the full paper or not. If i've read the paper i would still cite the abstract at Pub-Med because i'm hardly likely to type in the 5000 words or so of the paper, am i?

ric

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ratboy83

look. sod all this argumument. i've used both herbs. both helped me. give them a try. if it helps- wicked if it doesn't- not the end of the world!!!!! the test will only cost you a tenner!!!


alex.

ric_stern/RST

It's not an argument, it's a discussion. It's what online forums are about.

Anecdote doesn't really do it for me.

Ric

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tonyzackery

You two - Cape and Ric, really should take your bickering off line and just email each other back and forth and spare the rest of us. We thank you.

ric_stern/RST

Again, we're not bickering, we're having a discussion. Whether anything will come of the discussion is difficult to say. As for taking it off line, why would we want to? The idea of a forum is to discuss a subject, not suggest a topic and then have made your mind up prior to the discussion. If at some point the topic turned 'sour' (e.g., someone became rude), then i could close the thread as a moderator/community leader.

And, out of the discussion people reading that discussion may (or may not learn something), which seems like a good idea to continue it.

If you don't want to read the discussion, then simply don't. The thread and the forum isn't yours to 'shut'.

Ric

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tonyzackery

I understand. You both are the type of guys that need the last word...

ratboy83

well anecdote does do it for me. i don't givea why they work for me but they do. genuine effect or just a placebo effect? doesn't matter to me. i've have noticed a big difference with rhodiola rosea. that enough for me. i'll carry on using it thanks.

alex.

ratboy83

you've both been rude to each other, so maybe you should close the thread. you're right about not using the herbs- sounds like you're not old enough for it to be safe.

alex.

ratboy83

lactate and lactic acid are two terms for the same substance so EITHER one can be used. lactic acid can provide a fuel source for exercise but only when the INTENSITY DROPS SUFFICIENTLY. lactic acid is produced in the muscles as a result of anaerobic respiration- glucose or glycogen is broken down to form ATP but without the prescence of oxygen lactic acid is produced also. eventually a build up of lactic acid in the muscles leads to fatigue and prevents further muscle contractions as the body is unable to remove the lactic acid at a rate quicker than at which it is produced. this serves as a safety mechanism to stop muscle contraction at too high an intensity for too long which would cause muscle destruction. lactic acid is the primary cause of fatigue for high intensity exercise lasting between 30 seconds and 30 minutes (PC depletion being the reason for very high intensity, explosive exercise and depeltion of glycogen for lower intensity exercise lasting a loger period of time). it can only be used as a fuel source when the intensity drops or when the exercise stops so that the excess lactic acid can be dealt with. the lactic acid has three fates. firstly, it can be converted into pyruvic acid, which can then be broken down in to ATP in the prescence of oxygen (repaying the oxygen debt). additionally, it can be transported to the liver (lactic acid shuttling) where it can either be converted into glucose for use in the blood stream or converted into liver glycogen.
just thought i'd put you straight on that.

alex.

ric_stern/RST

'fraid not, you'll have to try again.

anyway, don't have time to go through it now for you (as i'm about to move house) but if you want to know that you're wrong you can always post this in the training forum. There, it's highly likely to be seen by Dr Andrew Coggan, who is a leading exercise physiologist.

And besides, lactate is always present in your blood (not just at high intensity), i.e., at rest (unless you have McArdles Disease).

Ric

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