Page 2 - Ginseng

15-12.-2006, 05:49 AM

#16

ratboy83

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Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 23

Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyfrankszzz

I've started taking some rhodiola rosea. Whilst I've noticed a calming effect on the mind, I don't feel the stimulant effect like I do with ginseng which gives me a real lift.

The brand I'm using has:

Ingredients: One Capsule provides:

Standardised Rhodiola Rosea root extract (3% rosavins, 1% salidrozid, 40% polyphenols) 250mg, Rhodiola Rosea root powder 130mg, Vegetarian cellulose capsule 100mg, Viridian bilberry extract, alfalfa spirulina blend 30mg

Perhaps I need to take more or perhaps it's just that my personal biochemistry is more receptive to ginseng than rhodiola.

that is intersting, because i experience the opposite- i find rhodiola rosea far more stimulating than ginseng. if i take it too late in the day it stops me sleeping- i toss and turn and feel a kinda heat sensation in my muscles and all over my body and the urge to get up and do something rather than sleep.

alex.

17-12.-2006, 10:46 PM

#17

CapeRoadster

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Posts: 82

Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

can't find any research on gingseng being ergogenic in endurance exercise either. quite a few papers showing no effect, though.

ric

Absence of evidence (and PubMed isn't the be-all and end-all of the discussion) is not evidence of absence. Most of the studies on this stuff are weak or designed to fail. If a person feels a difference, that person may be an "outlier" on the bell curve of the research, and you'll never be able to disprove an effect in that individual unless you test that individual. Right?

Ginseng is very likely ergogenic. There are many studies.

From Bahrke MS and Morgan WP "Evaluation of the ergogenic properties of ginseng: An update":

Quote:

"...while studies with animals show that ginseng, or its active components, may prolong survival to physical or chemical stress, there is generally a lack of controlled research demonstrating the ability of ginseng to improve or prolong performance in fatigued humans. In this review, we extend our earlier analysis on the potential efficacy of ginseng use in the enhancement of physical performance and modification of fatigue states. Our analysis reveals that published literature appearing since our earlier review has not resolved the equivocal nature of research evidence involving animals or humans. Also, the lack of unanimity in this research can be explained on the basis of various methodological problems such as inadequate sample size and lack of double-blind, control and placebo paradigms. In addition, the absence of acceptable approaches to the problem of 'sourcing', in concert with an absence of compliance data in human research, further complicates the interpretation of this research literature.

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17-12.-2006, 11:17 PM

#18

ratboy83

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Posts: 23

Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

I checked Pub-Med, not Google. No evidence to show that it is ergogenic in endurance performance

ric

yo dude, i think you were refferring to ginseng here but anyway there are loads of studies to show the benefit of rhodiola rosea. google "rhodiola rosea" and the the econd hit gives a comprehensive guide to the herb, with each point made supported by references. check it out.

alex.

Last edited by ric_stern/RST : 18-12.-2006 at 12:40 AM.

18-12.-2006, 12:42 AM

#19

ric_stern/RST

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Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratboy83

No, i was talking about rhodiola rosea, and there's no good evidence that it's an ergogenic aid (and some evidence that it does nothing).

ric

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18-12.-2006, 12:44 AM

#20

ric_stern/RST

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Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapeRoadster

so, show me where it is ergogenic for endurance performance. where are these studies that are peer reviewed, and used on endurance trained humans?

ric

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18-12.-2006, 06:51 AM	#21
chainstretched Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 48	Re: Ginseng In Dr James A. Duke's book 'The Green Pharmacy', Ginseng is listed as a being potentially effective at combating chronic fatigue syndrome. Here are a couple excerpts : 'Commission E, the group of scientists that advises the German government about herbs, endorses ginseng as a tonic to combat feelings of lassitude and debility, lack of energy and ability to concentrate, and during convalescence'. 'Clinical studies indicate that ginseng improves athletic performance' 'ginseng is used today by Russian cosmonauts and Asian Olympic athletes as an adaptogen, an herb that increases general resistance to all types of stress' I wonder if it would be safe to combine ginseng and rhodiola rosea.

18-12.-2006, 08:39 AM	#22
dannyfrankszzz Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 218	Re: Ginseng http://www.herbalgram.org/herbalgra...view.asp?a=2333 I'm no scientist but that seems quite comprehensive. Like I said though, I felt RR had a quite soothing calming effect but I didn't greatly notice much ergogenic aid. I found ginseng to be more effective in this department.

18-12.-2006, 10:45 AM

#23

CapeRoadster

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Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

so, show me where it is ergogenic for endurance performance. where are these studies that are peer reviewed, and used on endurance trained humans?

ric

I think you missed my point. Hey, just don't use it, and we'll see you at the finish line with your journal articles.

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18-12.-2006, 10:49 AM

#24

ric_stern/RST

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Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapeRoadster

I think you missed my point. Hey, just don't use it, and we'll see you at the finish line with your journal articles.

Not at all: In God we trust, everyone else bring data.

Ric

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18-12.-2006, 01:29 PM

#25

CapeRoadster

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Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

Not at all: In God we trust, everyone else bring data.

Ric

You definitely missed my point. I believe in "data" just as much as anyone. However, the research on ginseng, as the summary article I quoted aptly pointed out, is simply lacking. So, since enough research hasn't been done, clearly one should NOT rule out the possibility of ginseng as a performance-enhancer, especially given the fact that Chinese medicine has used it for centuries.

Listen, if we were to believe that data is everything, then important scientific findings would never see the light of day. Spinal manipulation therapy (SMT), otherwise known as osteopathic or chiropractic manipulation, was scoffed at for over 50 years by medicine because "evidence was lacking". Of course, the real reason there was little research was because of competition to medicine by chiropractors and osteopaths, and conspiracy by medicine against those professions (the A.M.A. was found guilty of conspiracy and violations of anti-trust laws against the chiropractic profession in 1987 in the Supreme Court of Illinois). Once medicine backed off, the door opened for integrative medicine and SMT was found to be overwhelmingly beneficial. The North American Spine Society (a group of mostly neurosurgeons) now gives SMT its highest rating for physical medicine techniques for LBP, for example. Yet, before 1988, for mostly political reasons, "evidence on SMT was lacking".

Your point is not lost on me. However, I'll say it again: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There is a growing body of evidence that ginseng is an effective PED, and an important botanical medicine for persons with a myriad of lung ailments. Further, the medical establishment often taints its own research with the aid of the pharmaceutical industry in order to squash anything that might be advantageous to its competition. That has happened repeatedly in medical journals like NEJM over the years.

The recent NEJM glucosamine study used the wrong type of glucosamine: it was a study designed to fail. A NEJM study on whiplash funded primarily by auto insurers is another example from a few years ago.

You're going to have to dig a little deeper.

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18-12.-2006, 01:33 PM	#26
CapeRoadster Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 82	Re: Ginseng Remember when they laughed at Dean Ornish, M.D. for saying the effects of heart disease could be "reversed"? Well, I remember it. Now it is established medical fact. If patients had to wait for research to try safe, already tried and true therapies that work despite lack of research base, like SMT or ginseng or glucosamine sulfate or a heart-healthy diet, then those patients would suffer a great deal and the world would be a poorer place because of it. Please don't confuse a lack of evidence with proof that something does not exist or have clinical benefit. That is a serious scientific mistake. __________________ I love France. I just hate Toulouse. I'd really hate to lose le Trek.

18-12.-2006, 06:32 PM

#27

ric_stern/RST

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Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapeRoadster

Remember when they laughed at Dean Ornish, M.D. for saying the effects of heart disease could be "reversed"? Well, I remember it. Now it is established medical fact.

If patients had to wait for research to try safe, already tried and true therapies that work despite lack of research base, like SMT or ginseng or glucosamine sulfate or a heart-healthy diet, then those patients would suffer a great deal and the world would be a poorer place because of it.

Please don't confuse a lack of evidence with proof that something does not exist or have clinical benefit. That is a serious scientific mistake.

Maybe you have difficulty understanding English -- i don't know whether English is your primary language. Anyway, i said that there is no evidence that it (either RR or G) is ergogenic for endurance trained athletes. That is true, there is no good peer reviewed evidence supporting that it is ergogenic in endurance trained athletes that i could find with a quick literature search. You then said there were lots of studies showing it was ergogenic. So, again, i ask you: where are these studies? Someone writing in a book that it's likely ergogenic doesn't cut it.

If you bother to take some time and read what i wrote, all i said was that there was no evidence supporting it's ergogenicity in endurance athletics. I haven't commented on whether it's likely or unlikely to be ergogenic.

I did however, find this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...l=pubmed_docsum

Ric

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30-12.-2006, 09:53 AM

#28

ratboy83

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Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 23

Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

Anyway, i said that there is no evidence that it (either RR or G) is ergogenic for endurance trained athletes. That is true, there is no good peer reviewed evidence supporting that it is ergogenic in endurance trained athletes that i could find with a quick literature search. You then said there were lots of studies showing it was ergogenic. So, again, i ask you: where are these studies?
Ric

here are several studies showing rhodiola rosea to be an effective ergogenic aid:-

1) De Bock, K; Eijnde, B.O.; Ramaekers, M; Hespel, P. (2004). Acute Rhodiola Rosea intake can improve endurance exercise performance. International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism. 14 (3). p298-307.

2) Saratikov and Tuzov (1963). Effect of Leuzea cartha-moides on physical work capacity and fuctional activity of the organism. Proceedings of Siberian Branch of USSR Academy of Sciences. Biological Sciences. 12. p126-132.

This study using various adaptogens, including Rhodiola Rosea, showed the adaptogens used increased endurance by 64%

3) Saratikov and Krasnov (1987). Rhodiola Rosea is a valuable Medicinal Plant. Tomsk. Monograph. Tomsk State University Press.

This study of 112 athletes showed that 89% of those who supplemeted with Rhodiola Rosea showed marked improvements in both speed and strength during track and field, swimming, speed skating and ski racing.

4) Seifula, R.D. (1999). Sport Pharmocology Manual. Sport Pharma Publishing. Moscow.

Similar results were shown to that of the study by Saratikov and Krasnov (1987) but this time the resluts were seen in weightlifters, wrestlers and gymnasts.

They were just a few. there are LOADS of studies out there on adaptogens and rhodiola rosea, most showing positive results. such studeis have been carried out extensively over the last 50 years. happy reading.

alex.

30-12.-2006, 10:21 AM

#29

ric_stern/RST

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Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratboy83

they're untrained individuals...

Quote:

2) Saratikov and Tuzov (1963). Effect of Leuzea cartha-moides on physical work capacity and fuctional activity of the organism. Proceedings of Siberian Branch of USSR Academy of Sciences. Biological Sciences. 12. p126-132.

This study using various adaptogens, including Rhodiola Rosea, showed the adaptogens used increased endurance by 64%

3) Saratikov and Krasnov (1987). Rhodiola Rosea is a valuable Medicinal Plant. Tomsk. Monograph. Tomsk State University Press.

This study of 112 athletes showed that 89% of those who supplemeted with Rhodiola Rosea showed marked improvements in both speed and strength during track and field, swimming, speed skating and ski racing.

4) Seifula, R.D. (1999). Sport Pharmocology Manual. Sport Pharma Publishing. Moscow.

Similar results were shown to that of the study by Saratikov and Krasnov (1987) but this time the resluts were seen in weightlifters, wrestlers and gymnasts.

They were just a few. there are LOADS of studies out there on adaptogens and rhodiola rosea, most showing positive results. such studeis have been carried out extensively over the last 50 years. happy reading.

alex.

data is very equivocal when *well designed tests* are used, e.g., http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...l=pubmed_docsum

or http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...l=pubmed_docsum

ric

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30-12.-2006, 11:27 AM

#30

CapeRoadster

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Re: Ginseng

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

Dear Ric, Mr. English,

You're claiming that I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

You then said there were lots of studies showing it was ergogenic.

One has to ask how your English is doing. Here's what I actually said:

Quote:

Ginseng is very likely ergogenic. There are many studies.

and

Quote:

However, the research on ginseng, as the summary article I quoted aptly pointed out, is simply lacking. So, since enough research hasn't been done, clearly one should NOT rule out the possibility of ginseng as a performance-enhancer, especially given the fact that Chinese medicine has used it for centuries.

So, please don't misquote me again. There are MANY studies on ginseng and performance-enhancement.

You also said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric_stern/RST

If you bother to take some time and read what i wrote, all i said was that there was no evidence supporting it's ergogenicity in endurance athletics. I haven't commented on whether it's likely or unlikely to be ergogenic.

Let me point out to you, Ric, that the correct possessive form of "belonging to it" is NOT "it's", as you wrote, but instead "its". The contraction "it's" means, literally "it is" and is a common mistake among those not educated in the proper form of the possessive. Confusing, yet true nonetheless. I was a newspaper editor for years in a past career. But, alas, I digress.

Now, when you say "there's no evidence", you're discounting centuries, millennia, of empirical Chinese evidence. You meant to say "there are no peer-reviewed, prospective, placebo-controlled, long-term studies using excellent, non-flawed research methods". But please listen, again:

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In other words, there are no good studies saying ginseng doesn't work, either. While you wait for those studies, there are those who will have effective results from using ginseng, placebo effect and non-placebo effect.

Further, many so-called "better" studies performed on herbs and plants used as medicines are flawed. They are seriously and fatally flawed oftentimes. If you don't read the ENTIRE study, though, you really shouldn't form an opinion. Citing abstracts is easy, reading and understanding entire studies is another thing. Have you actually read the ABSTRACTS you cite?

Here are some study ABSTRACTS showing ginseng has cognitive performance-enhancing effects. There are at least 400 of these studies out there, many looking also at gingko biloba, a blood-thinner with many other effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=12404705

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=12020739

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=11842916

Here is a study ABSTRACT showing ginseng has an ergogenic effect. I like this one because it is a review and it sees a role for ginseng in preventing upper respiratory viral infections and improving cognition. I believe these are ergogenic effects, although the authors of that review do not see improved cognition and prevention of viral infection as "improving athletic performance". I absolutely disagree. Sometimes even ABSTRACTS hold clues to authors' biases and views.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...l=pubmed_docsum

Here's a recent Korean study ABSTRACT that shows ginseng has an ergogenic effect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...l=pubmed_docsum

Here's one from Purdue showing an effect on lipid metabolism. Ergogenic? Yes, absolutely:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=12967598

The very respected Dr. Luke Bucci, who authored a textbook I own, as well as several others in clinical nutrition, published this in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition a few years back:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...l=pubmed_docsum

I'll quote from the ABSTRACT:

Quote:

Controlled studies of Asian ginsengs found improvements in exercise performance when most of the following conditions were true: use of standardized root extracts, study duration (>8 wk, daily dose >1 g dried root or equivalent, large number of subjects, and older subjects. Improvements in muscular strength, maximal oxygen uptake, work capacity, fuel homeostasis, serum lactate, heart rate, visual and auditory reaction times, alertness, and psychomotor skills have also been repeatedly documented. Siberian ginseng has shown mixed results.

So, as I said, there are studies. Many, many studies. Many of them DO show an ergogenic effect. Many do not. So, there you are. I've shown you several study ABSTRACTS. I respect Bucci's take on things. I advise you to read entire studies, not just abstracts, and tell me what you think. And you've got to get to the root of things, heh-heh. Take that as your first CLUE.

I'll be waiting for you at the finish line.

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Last edited by CapeRoadster : 30-12.-2006 at 11:46 AM.

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