Climate Change : Tony Blair : Stern Report

davidmc

Is this the Campy vs. Shimano thread

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I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

EoinC

...Others (USA, India, China...) are (much) worse than us, therefore we shouldn't take a lead? Other Nations conduct torture, therefore we shouldn't sign anything to say that we won't? If we are not prepared to take a (belated) lead, we don't actually sound very developed at all. We actually sound more like a spoilt child who is not prepared to take responsibility for the standard of living we enjoy.
...Therefore it should be fairly easy for us to be able to commit. In addition to all the 'good' work that we do, we also do plenty of harm, and have plenty of room to improve. It appears strange to me that many large companies are embracing the carbon-credit approach, but our Government is scared off by it.
...I don't think anyone has claimed that signing a piece of paper is going to solve global warning for anyone. It is a reference point only. Signing pieces of paper doesn't 'solve' wars, or anything else, but it does provide a reference point from which everyone can judge the behaviour of themselves and others. Have a look around at other agreements / co-operations that are in place, and see how hard those Countries on the 'outer' work to become one of the 'inner' (eg. Turkey's efforts to join the EC).
The 3rd World Countries can make improvements with support (eg. as Malaysia has reduced / restricted logging of primary forest through a combination of pressure and incentives).
One thing is for sure - As long as 1st World Countries, such as Australia and the USA, refuse to be held accountable for their contributions, it is very difficult for anyone to point fingers at others for their lack of response and commitment in accepting any responsibility for the condition of the planet.
I work in the industry involved in pumping hydrocarbons out of the ground as fast as we can, and my work takes me to quite a few 3rd World Countries (I'm currently at home in Perth taking a break before heading back to West Africa). We (1st World Countries) are raping and pillaging the World's resources, whilst making only token gestures towards recognising the problems of the future. I'm a part of the problem - we all are. Whilst I continue working at depleting the World's resources so that we can all enjoy our carefree lifestyles (supply and demand), I am also working to reduce my personal contribution to the problem - possibly more guilt-assuaging, than stellarly effective, but it is a start.
We need to stop waiting for the USA to take the lead on everything. We should have big enough cajones to pave the way. It's called leading by example.

davidmc

Agreed. China, India, Mexico, ect...have some responsibility too, no The U.S.'s energy sector is making progress especially in the area of new construction. Their emissions must meet the new standards from the beginning. Retro-fitting is where a goodly portion of the problem lies.

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I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

limerickman

Well said Eoin.

The fact of the matter is that climate change and our response to it - is now down to a specific timeframe.
If we don't act NOW - the damage that carbon emmissions/greenhouse gases do NOW, will be irreparable.

There are vested in interests - who's only objective is short term profit - who try to suggest that climate change is a lie.
Climate change isn't a lie : it's a fact.

The only discussion should be how do we reduce our carbon emmissions.
This is down to individual behaviour.
We can all do our bit to reduce carbon emmissions by using less electricity, by reducing the number of times we use our cars, by reducing the number of times we travel by aeroplane.

Whether we like it or not, carbon allowances on an individual basis, will come in to effect.
This means that peoples "carbon usage" will be measured.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

BillM

Who is it?

MountainPro

exactly...who is it..?

lets just say its the bad guys...

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HARD
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davidmc

So your country's investments have nothing to do w/ the U.S. I suggest you look at your country's real estate investments, among others You can't have it both ways.

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I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

wolfix

Nor does European consumption of American/Chinese goods mean anything to them. And what about German investment in the US? Here in the midwest, German investment is high. This is the usual USA bash forum. It gets old. A fair comparison would be Europe vs the USA. After all, the US is about 87% of the size of Europe in whole. .

Most European countries would rank as small to mid size states in the US..... For instance, he United States has 40 of it's 50 states bigger then Ireland. Germany and France would be considered large states. I imagine that Germany has a much bigger problem then France...

I would be curious to see what the enviromental numbers are when compared to each other..... 87% of Europe's numbers compared to the USA.

And how does Germany compare to other countries? I know they are struggling to meet the EU's standards. What are the numbers of Russia? {European}

And the countries that have low industrial pollution, is it because you import most of your goods, rather then have home grown industry?


US industry is also under pressure to meet new standards. Ask your custom frame builders in California how they have to deal with the simple act of frame painting.....


This is a situation facing us all. I have seen Americans cut back tremendously in their individual energy consumption.

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"I rule my world with a cellphone."

limerickman

I agree this is a problem which faces all of mankind.

However, lets look at what Stern says : the responsibility for the cauase of carbon emmission is heavy industry, followed by automobile usage, followed by short haul air travel.

Your country opposed the Kyoto Treaty. Your country stated that it did not accept the science that says there was global warming (in 1997) and it said that even if there was (is) global warming that it (your country) wasn't prepared to put tax emmissions.

The EU on the other hand - did sign up to Kyoto.
In addition the EU has long been in favour of protecting the eco-system.
Countries like Austria, the Scandinavia countries and now the rest of the EU have put in place taxation upon the industry which threatens the envoironment.
The EU has decided to reduce carbon emmission by 20% : it has also raised taxes significantly on industries who's processes cause threatening waste.

I am sure that a lot of Americans have cut back tremendously, which is great.
It's just a pity that the US goverment doesn't take more of a lead on this.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

BillM

Well of course. The bad guys are to blame for everything don't you know.

BillM

Yes you can...when you are hypocrite....you can complain about everyone else but never look at yourself.

That's why so many people are hypocrites....it's practically a religion.....and apparently very very popular over in Europe.

BillM

Limerick...the US didn't sign Kyoto for a reason. It was a BS treaty that allowed some countries to continue polluting unabated and required the US to shoulder an inordinate amount of pollution controls.

China is the prime example...Kyoto would allow China to continue expanding and polluting yet require the US to pull back. It wouldn't reduce pollution...it would simply shift it and allow China unfettered growth.

Complete BS.