Flash: Pope Blasts Islam

11ring

I think to understand these issues one must realise that religion is incredibly flexible. It can be used as a call to subservience or rebellion, for peace or war.

Political islam is expressing modern ideas and in reaction to modern realities. like nationalism and imperialism. Why is Islam the most popular flag of anti-imperialist resistance? Namely, because the nationalist secular movements in the Arab world were defeated by Israel and the US, with the help of their own realiance on stalinist interpretations of socialist tactics. (cosy up with right wing nationalists that eventually chop your heads off, all in the hope of establishing a "popular front" against imperialism)

Sure there are "fundamentalist" Islamic groups that are truly guided by their leaders interpretation of Islam. But time and time again throughout history in religious societies we see a political movement end up expressing its aims in religious terms.

The thirty years war in Europe was obsensibly religious. But what you see motivating people is not religion per say but incipient nationalism, liberalism and ideas regarding property rights.

Likewise in the middle east Jihad can be used to mean "war for independence" or "struggle against imperialism" which are the real motivators.

In Iraq, 90% want us troops out. In the absense of a secular alternative they express this urge through the langauge of religion.







[QUOTE=Carrera]If your point is that radical Islamics are currently showing themselves to be more extreme than Jews and Christians in these modern times, I take your point.

Pendejo

Yes, humankind has really made a lot of moral progress in the last few thousand years. We have the fundamentalist Muslims outraged at something the Pope said. It's really a battle to see who has the lowest IQ. It looks like a tie to me.

Carrera

The problem here is that we always see cases of people who cause shock and outrage backtracking when the going gets tough. Salmon Rushdie did it and so did John Lennon after he blurted out the Beatles were bigger than Christ.
Personally I would never do that. This is why Muhammad Ali was so courageous in his time since he didn't back down over his views in the face of pressure. Rushdie, to my mind, sold out when the going got tough.
The Pope is bound to say he didn't really mean it. What choice does he have, being faced with riots in countries such as Turkey that he plans to visit? Just because the Pope says he didn't really mean it, doesn't necessarily mean he's not acting under pressure.
Personally, to a certain extent, I agree with the Pope but with the exception that he failed to point out the Christian Church also has a bloody, violent history too.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

Extreme Islam only becomes a threat when the west becomes too weak. Most of the problems we had with extreme Islam has been caused within our own countries (being ridiculously too liberal) as opposed to Iraq or outside.
If governments begin to believe they are wrong to support freedom and secularism then there is a void that opens up. The void will be filled by whoever is willing to fill it.
When fanatics are alowed to shout for the death penalty for infidels in the streets of London and burn images of the Pope with violent intent, then that indicates we have a major problem within the country - namely of being too weak and liberal to defend certain values. If this weakness is seen in the fundamentalist world, they'll certainly take advantage of it.
None of this would have been tolerated in Moscow or Japan, let alone China.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

jhuskey

Ali while waiting for a plane to take off was told to buckle his seat belt. He replied "Superman don't need no seatbelt". The flight attendant replied " Superman don't need no plane,buckle-up"! Ali complied.
He was a colorful character,great boxer and entertainer in his day, but totally full of crap sometimes,in a charming way.

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Whenever I can't get excited about riding I just fantasize about someone else's bike.

2FAST4U

No, you hold up here...Yes and I stand by my vote for the record. The "further statement" which you refer was only released after Muslims around the world started burning his likeness and issuing death threats. Tell me Lim, would the Pope had made a "further statement" as you call it, if the Muslim world had remained silent?


Oh, I understood it, and BTW who made you the Popes personal interpreter? Are you ST. Lim now??

Yeah, some psycho with a gun who was influenced by jihad.

I think we would both agree here..

This has no bearing on what I stated...You are grasping here. I mean, my "initial" comments are just that...When you refer to "initial" comments, that statement indicates that there are comments following the "initial" comment thus the likelyhood that something would transpire after the "initial" comment is quite likely...Perhaps you should play the lottery today for you are on a roll.....




No intiating a debate/argument with you.
Just pointing out the fact that you haven't got a clue.[/QUOTE]

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[/b]drinking ale from a barrel[/b]

wolfix

Ali was what jhusky said he was, but he was not a person who walked the moral highground during his life. Wasn't the Pope's speech in the context of "Faith and Reason?" Since the Rasberg speeech, I have questioned several people in the local university philosophy/religion department about this. They seem to think the Pope's speech was not infammatory , but mis-undestood.
I did not think the Pope issued a public apology, but a public statement defending his speech. Am I wrong about that?
I want to believe that killing of nun was a act of a few individuals. But we see. We will see.

__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."

limerickman

On the 17/09/06, the Pope stated that the quote attributed at 12/09/06 to
Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus, do not reflect the Popes personal view of Islam.

For those of us who read the speech at 12/09/06 - it was clear that the Pope wasn't attacking Islam.

You thought that the Pope was referring to Islam at 12/09/06.
He wasn't.




No. But I did read his speech at 12/09/06 - and it was clear then that the Pope wasn't referring to islam in that speech.

And no, I'm not St.Lim.





Do you have evidence, at the time of writing, that the person who murdered the nun is a Muslim?




Of course it has a bearing.

You said that you supported the comments made by the Pope at 12/09/06.

Several days later you then said that the murder of the nun confirmed why you supported the comments of the Pope.

If you read the speech at 12/09/06 - you would have seen that the speech did not attack Islam.
The Pope himself stated at the 17/09/06 that his speech, at 12/09/06,
was not an attack on Islam.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

Really? How about the burning of the effigy of the Pope in dear old England, each year? What does that make England, eh?






I suggest that you ought to move to one of those countries, then.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Carrera

I lived in Russia for quite some time, years in fact. I was a student not so far from Moscow at Tver State University. Maybe the people are less wishy-washy as they still have national service and do time in the army.
To be honest, I do prefer Russia. Lovely women, cheap alcohol and Moscow is now booming economically.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

Ali was far from being the great man they made him into after Vietnam. However, he was very courageous. It took a lot of guts to refuse to go to Vietnam as a point of principle - Ali didn't believe the war was the right way to go. Bear in mind, he could have done the same as Joe Luis and just encouraged the troops at bases while in service. Even the Nation Of Islam suggested Ali should join up but he was adamant.
That made him the most hated man in the U.S.A. He had to stomach being called a coward and chicken by mothers whose own sons were going out to die.
So, on the point of raw courage, Ali was an example.
His flaws were summed up in his womanising. He was unfaithful to his women and sleeping all over the place with women lined up. He also made fun of Joe Frazier and called him an uncle Tom and gorilla.
However, the guy just took way too much in the ring after Manila. The fight with Holmes should never have been allowed.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

"Really? How about the burning of the effigy of the Pope in dear old England, each year? What does that make England, eh?"

That's news to me. I'm not Catholic but both my girlfriends were Catholics. Especially the one from Spain - she'd cross herself when entering a church as I recall.
That's the weird thing. All the girls I knew were called Mari such and such, Mari Jose, Mari Jesus, Mari Angeles. It was all about the name Maria - the mother of God.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

wolfix

Sounds like a very good reason to name a child. But to run with this a little bit, what were the parents thinking that named their child "Dick"? Especially if the last name is "Pound"? "Dick Pound"? What were they thinking? Sounds like a gay porn star......

But back to Marie...... Is there anything sexier then a woman named Marie....???? Gina Marie... Anna Marie.... I could go on ....... Of course I can remember such excellent Maggies and Molly's.

Russian women ??? Beautiful. I knew some. But sometimes I wondered abput the ones named Olga.....

__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."

limerickman

Lewes in Sussex - they burn effigies of the Pope there.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.