Ignore if you are not interested in Israel/Lebanon Ceasfire...

limerickman

Revisionism is a great thing.

"The people of America were not supportive.........."

If you weren't supportive why did Johnson send over 500,000 troops to Vietnam between 1964-1968?

Despite 500,000 troops, despite all the technology with those troops, your country started to lost that war.
That's the people of America were not supportive of the war .....it was only after the bodybag count started to really accumulate.
There was never any choice in it - the NVA saw to that.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Carrera

PHHHEEEW! That was the biggest drubbing I ever saw Darkboong ever get on the soapbox ever.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

Now I am confused.

"No wasteful posts about Chechyna or Vietnam. If you want to post about them - start a new thread. Threads are to stay on topic from here on in.
Any meandering will be editied."

"Despite 500,000 troops, despite all the technology with those troops, your country started to lost that war.
That's the people of America were not supportive of the war .....it was only after the bodybag count started to really accumulate."

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

BillM

I guess it's easy for someone to sit in a country as inconsequential to world affairs as Ireland and cast judgement on everyone else.

I guess I understand the inferiority complex.......I mean really....if Ireland sunk into the ocean tomorrow.....would anyone in the world even notice?

Does Ireland produce anything....do you carry any clout....do you other nations consult you on any move that they make......the answer to all of them is no. That's gotta suck......doesn't it.

Our military in Vietnam was not very technologically advanced...I admit completely we lost the war.....I will also vehemently defend the fact that we fought that war like a drunken Irishman. Flailing around, frothing and spitting but really being inneffective in our actions.

It won't ever happen again. I think we proved that in Afghanistan when we laid waste to the vaunted Taliban and "Mujahadeen" that stood down the dreaded Soviet military.

So to find an example where a military defeated a "guerilla" army you don't have to reach very far back into history to find your first example.....unless of course you are going to pull the BS theory that they survived so they won.

I don't call hiding in caves and living on the run being victorious. Prior to our action....they were in power and ruled Afghanistan...now they live like rats in the mountains and tremble at the sound of a helicopter.

We win.....again.

BillM

No...never heard of Billsworld. Sorry.


The difference being....if Israel were to be invaded.....the IDF wouldn't take up defensive positions in schools, churches and hospitals. They might be near them...hell in America our bases our near cities too.

The proximity of a "base" is irrelevant...what matters is where you take up a defensive position when being bombed. If you are near a hospital....oh well....but when you are IN the hospital...hoping like hell that the IDF will take pity on you....then you become pathetic.


If Israel violated the sovereign territory of Lebanon then by all means Lebanon is within their rights to attack Israel....but when that happens.....expect Israel to defend itself. This isn't rocket science.


Well....you believing me is really important to me too.....I couldn't care less what you believe. The facts are the facts....many Americans are not exactly ardent supporters of our countr supporting Israel so devoutly. I am one of them...whether you believe it or not....it matters not to me.

darkboong

I'm not making any call on that issue whatsoever. The point of the summary is to list the events that lead up to the breakdown of the ceasefire...

With all due respect BillM : Ehud Olmert, Dan Halutz, Amir Peretz and Nasrallah all agreed that the two IDF troops were captured on the Lebanese side of the border. The Israelis changed their story without any explaination some days after the fighting started, I provided sources dates and times in another thread.



If that is your definition self-defence, you must also accept that the Lebanese have the right to defend themselves by invading Israel too. As far as I am concerned invading a country and bombing it flat counts as *attacking*.



Hezbollah are people, just the same as the IDF servicemen, you and me. No one in their right mind wants more violence (clearly you aren't in your right mind because you do).

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Free Beer !

darkboong

If/Buts/Maybes...

The IDF would. Any army worth it's salt would, particularly if the opposition is *attacking* the schools, churches and hospitals as the IDF do. Clearly you have seen the pictures of the hospitals they've attacked, the ambulances they've attacked and the schools they have attacked. Maybe you have heard about the school kids that have been shot at their desks by IDF snipers within the Occupied Territories.



It is inevitable which is why I find the IDF's whinging about it pretty lame, particularly when they would be in the same position if they were being invaded or bombed.



Israel *has* violated Lebanese sovereign territory for *decades*. UNIFIL has produced hundreds of reports of these violations, you can read the summaries at the UN website. I've even provided references to several of them in other posts.



Fair play, but don't expect us to roll over when you make all these bold assertions without one shred of evidence to back it up.

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Free Beer !

BillM

Now why won't you make a call on that....you seem to be informed enough to make a call on everything else...from American politics to what the IDF motives are but this you won't touch. Nice.


Ok....did you mention the 8 Israelis that were killed in the same operation that resulted in those two soldiers being kidnapped? Assuming what you say is true....why has NOBODY else...at least that I have heard....said that. Why did the world media that was pounding on Israel to stop.....never mention it?
The only place I have ever heard that....was from you....on here....so you couldn't blame me for being skeptical.

If it is true....Lebanon is within their rights to defend themselves but they have to be prepared for the consequences of their actions as well.


Sure....Lebanon has that right....I completely agree...but of course Israel is going to defend itself.


I thought you would make a whole post without an insult...I guess I was wrong.

In a way I think more violence is the answer......this region has been embroiled in mindless violence for decades.....I don't think they will ever live in peace.....so maybe an all out war to finally decide who gets to call the shots is the answer.

I do know this....as a world citizen.....I am sick and tired of hearing about violence in the Middle East. I stand by me statement....if Hezbollah were "victorious" as you allege.....then they wouldn't sit their like bumps on a log and let the IDF attack them with no response.

BillM

If you think it's ok for soldiers to hide in schools and churches then that speaks volumes. Enough said.



The IDF doesn't whine about it....they respond to those who are whining because a church was bombed.

If the damn "volunteers" weren't holed up in there like rats hoping like hell that the IDF wouldn't bomb them....then the chances of it actually happening are minimal. The IDF gains nothing from bombing these kinds of targets and they have everything to gain by NOT doing it. They KNOW they are going to be painted as evil for doing it.

Think about it.


Then Lebanon should defend itself. I don't understand your point.....I doubt Israel violated Lebanese territory for no reason. I doubt they were just out for a stroll and crossed the border by mistake or suddenly had the urge for some Lebanese takeout food.


The evidence is common sense.....so you are right in saying that you don't have a shred of it.

Carrera

Darkboong is big on talk and excuses but the truth is these political/geographical issues have always been decided by armies throughout the centuries.
The Islamic World resents a Jewish presence in the Middle East as they feel threatened by it. Envy also comes into it. Judaism is 1,400 years older than Islam since Islam only appeared around 600 A.D. Deep down, that upsets the Islamic extremists as what they seek is control over Jerusalem.
Darkboong also wishes to see Islam in control of Jerusalem but he simply won't admit it (although occasionally he slips up).
So, this is straightforward to accept: The Moslem World seeks control of Jerusalem and, more than likely, plans to continue its attacks on Israel and the U.S., using every trick in the book. Usuaally this boils down to masked men without a uniform who hide in shadows and lay bombs.
However, if countries such as Iran and organizations like Hamas aim to displace Jews, they should have no doubt that this time round, Jews will fight with all the arms at their disposal. They shouldn't imagine it's going to be stroll in the park. My money is also on Israel to defeat any Arab State when push comes to shove and that includes Iran.
This latest confrontation will only make the IDF more aware of how worse things would be if Iran had WMD. This is why they will take the fight directly to Iran in good time. That's my view.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

limerickman

Not casting judgement on anyone, Bill.

Merely stating that it was a fact that the NVA ran your country out of Vietnam.
Not my problem that you refuse to face facts.

And as regards inferiority complex - we don't have an inferiority complex.
Nor do we invade countries.





I don't think the British soldiers who are being picked off by the Taliban in the Helmand Province of Afghanistan would concur with your latest claim.

The Taliban - unfortunately - still control large areas of Afghanistan and Sharia Law is still imposed therein.





Afghanistan and Iraq have been lost Bill.
Both countries are in a state of anarchy.

You're in denial.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

Jews, Christians and Muslims lived "cheek by jowl" in Palestine from 13th century to 1918.
If your claim is true - how come Judasim was allowed to flourish under the Caliphate (1211 - 1918) ?




Muslims allowed access to Jerusalem during the 1211-1918 period - that's 707 years of access for both Jew and Christian to Jerusalem.





Carerra - I would like you to provide proof where Darkbong made such a claim.

This is another lie that you have posted here - carerra.
Having asked you to desist - you still persist in posting lies.
I am not prepared to indulge your posting lies about other posters.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Carrera

"Carerra - I would like you to provide proof where Darkbong made such a claim."

Sure! There have been occasions where Darkboong has slipped up. Let's take a look at this statement he made, for instance, and let's allow other people to make a collective decision, so we get a fair analysis:

"The Chechnya conflict is about regaining independence. The Israeli conflict is about setting up a Jewish state in a majority Muslim land."
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t-352682-15-2.html (Darkboong)


Specify the message number under which you claim that Darkboong made that statement, please.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

I read the third message - on the link that you provided and I cannot see where
DB made the claim that you say he made.

Which has brought us to the same problem, Carerra.
You're posting more lies again

I suggest to you that you ought to retract your false statement about DB.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."