Ignore if you are not interested in Israel/Lebanon Ceasfire...

Carrera

"The fact of the matter is that the Token on her trip to the Middle East never endorsed a ceasefire until it became apparent that Hezbollah were not going to be removed by Zionist/IDF."
Israel performed badly in this conflict - no denying it. I'm not going to waste my own time defending a botched operation. Most Israelis seem aware they need to get their ship in order.
However, it took Russia at leat 2 years to crack Chechnya with many setbacks. The first assault on Grozniy was a disaster.
Where are the Chechnyan terrorists now though? Did Russia listen to the U.N. as Israel has been doing or did Russia decided to finish the job?
It took some 2 years but Chechnya is no longer a terrorist state and a threat to Moscow.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

darkboong

I am pretty awful at it to be honest, I just post reports with sources, and when I am wrong I say so. Spinners (like yourself) never admit they are wrong, they just pretend the world revolves around them..



IF that is the case how come alleged Hezbollah militants are being shot just 3km from the border, hmm ?



Got any evidence to prove it from any source other than the IDF, or a source that is quoting the IDF, or a source that is affiliated to the IDF ?



No need to spin it, let the facts speak for themselves. Ifs/Buts & Maybes are just that, they don't reflect reality.



Within Israel the blame is being laid with Olmert/Halutz/Peretz.



Attacking indiscriminately, killing, wounding and destroy civillian infrastructure simply because they happen to be living there is dumb, immoral and illegal. The fact that Israel (and you) recognise the problem, yet persist in attacking indiscriminately confirms that Israel (and you) are dumb, immoral and criminal.

For the record the IDF operates in exactly the same way as well. All those border towns have barracks, artillery posts, amunitions dumps and the like in them or nearby. All those IDF reservists were hiding behind their wives and children...

The fact of the matter is that invading armies will *always* find it nigh-on impossible to distinguish between hostile and friendly on enemy turf. The reason being that just about everyone is hostile *because* the invaders have been breaking stuff and killing people.

The days of agreeing on a field to fight on went out with plate mail armor, it is time you and your IDF chums got used to the harsh realities of war rather than whinge about it.



In your opinion every last square inch of Lebanon should be destroyed (and by implication that will lead to the deaths of the majority of Lebanese).



People who do not take responsibility for their actions are cowards and liars. When you say it's all Hezbollah's fault that the IDF attacked civillians in the very towns where they lived, you are simply making a liar and a coward out of the IDF.



Steady on Adolf.



The IDF and Olmert both claimed that the abduction happened on Lebanese turf. It was only after they had killed a few hundred Lebanese that they changed their story to fit their claims of provocation. At the start of this thread I outlined three incidents of the IDF breaking the Ceasefire with lethal consequences. By your very own calculus of revenge the entire state of Israel must be bombed "flat as a prarie".

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darkboong

Realistically speaking Chechnya was never a threat to Russia, terrorist or otherwise.

The vast majority of the fighting occurred on Chechnyan turf because the Russian army effectively *invaded* Chechnya. Given the vast imbalance of casualities it is clear that Russia is more of a threat to Chechnya than the other way around.

The same point stands with regard to Israel and Lebanon, and Israel and the Palestinians. You can try to claim otherwise but the facts will always be against you.

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Carrera

The IDF has been following bad avice for far too long. Even the U.S. has shown itself to be too reluctant to really give Israel a free hand to sort this situation out.
Sadly, Israel isn't in the same situation as Russia where it can take its own course of action. Soon as the U.N. begins to seriously wring its hands, the U.S. gets cold feet and Israel is forced to back down.
If the IDF really wanted to destroy Hizbollah it could do it - it's just the degree of force it could use without causing excessive international outrage. Clearly it would involve massive civilian casualties as Hizbollah is hidden in urban areas. It would also take possibly six months of constant pounding till the organization fell or fled.
The job is half-done but that's the U.N.'s fault.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

The BBC reports another foreign kidnapping in Gaza today. This is why I draw the comparison with Chechnya. Chechnya and Gaza, so far as I'm concerned, are the same - hotbeds for Jihadist fanatics.
Israel needs it's own version of Vladimir Putin, I think. Under Yeltsin, little progress was made in the Chechnyan war. The Russians did it all wrong and tried to fight Chechnyan militants house to house and they lost a lot of conscripts.
Still, Putin was more decisive. When the U.N. started to kick up a fuss and scream over terrorists human rights, I recall Russia fired one of its ICBM's as a warning to the U.N. to stay out of the situation. It was just a strong diplomatic gesture.
Then Putin hit Chechnya hard. The U.N. wasn't allowed any access in fact. The result is Chechnyan terrorism is a spent force where it used to be an unstable breeding ground for bombers and fanatics.
That's what Israel needs, I believe. Possibly Netanyahu would sort things out. The IDF has been too soft for too long and negotiation has only made matters worse and they should ignore the U.N. - the U.N. has let us down again, so it seems.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

limerickman

As usual you're wrong.
No country anywhere has managed to beat a guerilla unit.

Doesn't matter how many missiles/rockets etc an army may have, when it's opponent is a guerilla force, the guerilla force will win out.
History shows this to be true.
In pure military terms, that war is unwinnable for Israel.

In relation to guerilla positions located in areas of dense population : israel locates it's military position in densely populated areas of Northern Israel especially.
The Guardian newspaper did an excellent piece on this last week shwoing positions located beside hospitals/schools in Northern israel.
Looks like the IDF use civilians for cover.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Carrera

The U.S. could have taken, say, Vietnam at any time. Seriously. The limitations were only set by diplomacy - the risk of war with the Soviets.
Same with Gaza. As I understand it, both the U.S. and Europe have been molly-coddling - even funding and financing - Gaza for decades. Israel has been seriously limited by the U.S. dependence on Arab oil - the diplomatic knock-on effect excessive force in Gaza by the IDF would have on oil markets i.e. upsetting the Saudis.
As most people are aware, the IDF could have literally converted both Gaza and Lebanon into a pile of dust. Guerilla warfare is all well and good if there are buildings and bunkers left to hide in. In reality, guerilla warfare didn't particularly help the Taliban - they were bombed out of their bunkers - and it didn't help the Chechnyans. It depends how hard you hit them.
How long did the Taliban last when confronted by a genuine army? They are only scoring successes against the British since the U.S. pulled out - which speaks volumes.
If Israel and America ever wise up, end the dependence on Arab oil and stop beating around the bush, the Gazan situation could be sorted out in a matter of weeks, I believe.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

darkboong

Yeltsin *started* the --ing war in the first place.



They *have* to do that in order to kill them, and in doing so they hurt and anger the residents. That inevitably leads to the residents identifying more with the militants than the invaders. The same principle has applied since the dawn of time and it will continue to apply for the forseeable future, conscripts or no.

That is why violence really won't work unless one of the beligerants executes a comprehensive genocide.



As far as I know that has not changed, largely because the conditions on the ground have not changed. The conflict is reported as spreading to the surrounding regions and countries.



I am not aware of any official Israeli negotiation since 2001. The result is the situation we see today in Gaza and Lebanon.



They've been shooting UN troops since time immemorial, it would be nice if they did ignore UN troops for a change. Israel is letting the world down with it's beligerant stance, asn you are letting the UK down with your hatred of mulit-cultural society.

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darkboong

What utter tosh. The limitations were on man-power and cash. There is absolutely no evidence that public opinion had any sway whatsoever, the US forces bailed out because they were getting swamped by the NVA and the costs were unsustainable.

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Carrera

"Grozny, the Chechen capital, was engulfed by a pitched battle. After infantry assaults failed, the Russian military set out to pulverize the city into submission. Russian aircraft bombarded Grozny while armored forces and artillery hammered the city from the ground. After Grozny fell, the war moved to the countryside. Russian forces “pacified'' Chechen villages, attacking them with tanks, artillery, and aircraft, often regardless of whether they resisted."

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

darkboong

Update to the scoresheet ...

August 13th
Ceasefire commences.
Two hours later an IDF patrol kills 3 militants (or so they claim)

August 19th
IDF conducts a "commando" raid near Baalbek (60 miles from the Blue Line).
IDF conducts airstrikes in the area.

August 21st
IDF claims that it shot dead 3 suspected Hezbollah fighters in south Lebanon.

August 22nd
"An Israeli soldier was killed and three others wounded when their tank hit an Israeli-laid mine in southern Lebanon on Tuesday evening, the army said"

August 22nd
"Israeli soldiers entered the Lebanese border village of Rub Thalatheen and seized two residents, the official Lebanese news agency said"

August 22nd
"There was artillery fire near the Shebaa farms area at the convergence of Lebanon, Syria and the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights; Israel said it fired only onto its own territory near the border, as a deterrent, but Lebanese officials said Israeli troops had fired into a Lebanese village"

All sourced from the BBC which in turn sourced them from the Israeli authorities (or other sources where stated). I have not seen any reports of Hezbollah attacking the IDF or Israel since the ceasefire took hold, if anyone has seen reports, let me know times dates and sources.

Israel has violated the ceasefire at least 5 times (and shot itself up once). As far as I am aware Hezbollah have abided by the ceasefire.

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limerickman

The US couldn't take Vietnam.

And the US didn't take Vietnam.

You're a fantasist.




The EU has funded Gaza and Palestine.






Lebanon isn't a pile a dust.

But even if it were - how come after 34 days of war - Hizbollah was still able to fire rockets to within the interior of Israel - given the destuction to Lebanon that you claim?

You are wasting our collective time with the rubbish you're posting here.




The USA created Israel in 1948 in order to have a conduit to the Middle East and it's oil.
Israel is a proxy - nothing more.

It's about the only factual thing that you have managed to post thus far.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Carrera

The Vietnam disaster was a bit of a myth. The politicians lost the war not the military.
My theory is also that the West probably wouldn't have beaten Hitler in WW2 without Stalin for similar reasons. Stalin was a monster but it takes a wolf to kill a bear. The only way Hitler could have been defeated was by another leader who was as uncivilized as he was.
Had the U.N. stood between Europe and Hitler we'd have lost the war very quickly.
I believe in human rights and what the U.N. endorses but sadly, human rights applied to tyrants and mass-murderers like Hitler doesn't seem to work. It's like hiring a peace activist as a bouncer in a nightclub - all you'll get is trouble and violence every night in the nightclub. That's why bruisers are hired instead.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

limerickman

So it is your statement that Chechyna is at peace and that the Russian have won?
(can't wait for this answer!)

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.