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Fidel Castro

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Old 21-08.-2006, 02:06 PM   #46
nns1400
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Default Re: Fidel Castro
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaby
The analysis by Human Rights Watch...which you posted...was "5 000 - 12 000 deaths".
Would that be correct?
No, the analysis by HRW was regarding political prisoners.

The source material for trying to determine numbers of executions, etc,( which is so simple to do, really, in a country with no freedom) was not HRW, but a website that for some reason devotes itself to these sorts of statistics in the world. The link is http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat6.htm#Cuba59

It cites lots of sources that they explain in further detail on the site. So you can read the list of all the sources they cite. This guy wrote the ANALYSIS line, which you quoted. His view is that between 5,000 and 12,000 people have been executed or died because of the govt in the worker's paradise of Cuba.
Most of the figures seem to agree that over 2,000 people were executed by the regime by 1970; at least 12,000 by the late 90's. Numbers are higher if you include people who have disappeared. Fidel won't say of course. But surely you will agree now with the fact that Fidel Castro executes "a lot" of people. Yes or no?

HRW material was very clearly addressing the issue of dissidents. "In March 2003,police detained scores of political dissidents and others viewed as "counter-revolutionary" in their thinking. By early April, the Cuban courts had sentenced 75 defendants to prison terms ranging from 6 to 28 years." You seemed to be of the opinion that there weren't any dissidents, or that they don't get treated very badly, like they do in the US. (The US doesn't even have any dissidents. People here are allowed to say or think anything they want.) Does Cuba have any political prisoners? Yes or no?



P.S. It is late here in America and I am going to bed. So I will look forward to your reply tomorrow.
Last edited by nns1400 : 21-08.-2006 at 02:10 PM. Reason: I'm tired
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Old 21-08.-2006, 09:06 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by nns1400
No, the analysis by HRW was regarding political prisoners.

The source material for trying to determine numbers of executions, etc,( which is so simple to do, really, in a country with no freedom) was not HRW, but a website that for some reason devotes itself to these sorts of statistics in the world. The link is http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat6.htm#Cuba59

It cites lots of sources that they explain in further detail on the site. So you can read the list of all the sources they cite. This guy wrote the ANALYSIS line, which you quoted. His view is that between 5,000 and 12,000 people have been executed or died because of the govt in the worker's paradise of Cuba.
Most of the figures seem to agree that over 2,000 people were executed by the regime by 1970; at least 12,000 by the late 90's. Numbers are higher if you include people who have disappeared. Fidel won't say of course. But surely you will agree now with the fact that Fidel Castro executes "a lot" of people. Yes or no?

HRW material was very clearly addressing the issue of dissidents. "In March 2003,police detained scores of political dissidents and others viewed as "counter-revolutionary" in their thinking. By early April, the Cuban courts had sentenced 75 defendants to prison terms ranging from 6 to 28 years." You seemed to be of the opinion that there weren't any dissidents, or that they don't get treated very badly, like they do in the US. (The US doesn't even have any dissidents. People here are allowed to say or think anything they want.) Does Cuba have any political prisoners? Yes or no?



P.S. It is late here in America and I am going to bed. So I will look forward to your reply tomorrow.

"5 000-12 000" over 47 years is hardly a lot.
That's 106-255 deaths per year.Not a lot considering that for all of that time Cuba has been under covert attack by extreme right-wingers sponsored by the US. Take a look at Haiti where the notorious Papa "Doc" Duvalier is estimated to have killed 30 000 over a similar period.Take a look at Nicaragua,Guatemala,El Salvador,Dominican Republic,Panama,Chile,Brazil,Bolivia,Paraguay,Argentina,Colombia...all of which have murdered dissidents and all of whom have had right-wing governments whose Death Squads were armed,trained and financed by the US.And that's just Central and South America.
You conveniently chose to ignore all of that,and the reason is obvious...Cuba has a left-wing government,and that's your real bone of contention...isn't it?
Actually,I never mentioned Cuban dissidents.As for your statement that people are allowed to say or think what they want...what would be the likely result if I were to say any of the above in a state with the history of violence that Florida has?
Stating that the US has no dissidents is nonsense.Kent State,Waco,The Black Panthers,the Civil Rights Movement,the Anti Vietnam War Movement? The US has a long record when it comes to dissidents...what do you think the millions of people who died in US wars of aggression over the last 100 years were?
The US Coast Guard enforces US government policy and that policy is to return anyone captured on their way to America.Either the US government does not consider these economic refugees are at risk or they are complicit in the "brutal" repression that you claim.You can't have it both ways.
I stand by my original statement.On balance,Castro has been a good president for Cuba based on his record of improving child mortality and providind the best doctors and medical care possible,in spite of the US government sanctions which make it illegal for you to go and see for yourself...as Lim did.I also could visit Cuba if I so chose...in the Land of the Free...you get arrested.
Try reading another perspective about US policy in the region,written by a USMC General,twice decorated with the Congressional Medal of Honour and the most popular soldier in the Usa at the time writing.It was written in 1933,but it remains true today.Nothing's changed.
http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm
Smedley Butler on Interventionism
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Last edited by stevebaby : 21-08.-2006 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 21-08.-2006, 09:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by stevebaby
So what you are saying is...the US government,by returning these people to Cuba where they may be killed by a brutal and murderous regime...is an accessory to their murders.
Would that be correct?

You aren't doing a very good Columbo imitation. I am saying that they are not citizens of the United States and if we intercept them at sea we send them back.

We do that.....we're evil.
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Old 21-08.-2006, 09:17 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm
Maybe BillM is a reborn wolfux?

Hey Bill, buy a fecking CLUE. Do some critical thinking. Try not to be so obviously a to0L for the Neo Cons/Repigs.

Lighten up Wurm....you take yourself waaaay too seriously.

As for critical thinking......good advice. Hate clouds most peoples thinking.....think about that Wurm.
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Old 21-08.-2006, 09:24 PM   #50
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Default Re: Fidel Castro
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaby
"5 000-12 000" over 47 years is hardly a lot.
That's 106-255 deaths per year.Not a lot considering that for all of that time Cuba has been under covert attack by extreme right-wingers sponsored by the US. Take a look at Haiti where the notorious Papa "Doc" Duvalier is estimated to have killed 30 000 over a similar period.Take a look at Nicaragua,Guatemala,El Salvador,Dominican Republic,Panama,Chile,Brazil,Bolivia,Paraguay,Argentina,Colombia...all of which have murdered dissidents and all of whom have had right-wing governments whose Death Squads were armed,trained and financed by the US.And that's just Central and South America.
You conveniently chose to ignore all of that,and the reason is obvious...Cuba has a left-wing government,and that's your real bone of contention...isn't it?
Actually,I never mentioned Cuban dissidents.As for your statement that people are allowed to say or think what they want...what would be the likely result if I were to say any of the above in a state with the history of violence that Florida has?
Stating that the US has no dissidents is nonsense.Kent State,Waco,The Black Panthers,the Civil Rights Movement,the Anti Vietnam War Movement? The US has a long record when it comes to dissidents...what do you think the millions of people who died in US wars of aggression over the last 100 years were?
The US Coast Guard enforces US government policy and that policy is to return anyone captured on their way to America.Either the US government does not consider these economic refugees are at risk or they are complicit in the "brutal" repression that you claim.You can't have it both ways.
I stand by my original statement.On balance,Castro has been a good president for Cuba based on his record of improving child mortality and providind the best doctors and medical care possible,in spite of the US government sanctions which make it illegal for you to go and see for yourself...as Lim did.I also could visit Cuba if I so chose...in the Land of the Free...you get arrested.
Try reading another perspective about US policy in the region,written by a USMC General,twice decorated with the Congressional Medal of Honour and the most popular soldier in the Usa at the time writing.It was written in 1933,but it remains true today.Nothing's changed.
http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm
Smedley Butler on Interventionism

160 - 170 deaths by execution per year is not a lot? Wow.

History of violence in Florida? Please explain.

US policy on Cuba in 1933 is no different than today? Did you actually write that?

This argument is fruitless and not worth the effort.

Could you please detail a War of Aggression initiated by the United States where we invaded another country....for no reason.....and MILLIONS of people died?

I'd like to hear this.......because when you start to think about the crap you wrote.....you stuck your foot in your mouth.

US War of Aggression in the last 100 years listed out.....please.
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Old 21-08.-2006, 09:38 PM   #51
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Default Re: Fidel Castro
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Originally Posted by BillM
160 - 170 deaths by execution per year is not a lot? Wow.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/usexecute.htm
U.S. Executions Since 1976
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Old 21-08.-2006, 09:53 PM   #52
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Default Re: Fidel Castro
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillM

History of violence in Florida? Please explain.

US policy on Cuba in 1933 is no different than today? Did you actually write that?

Could you please detail a War of Aggression initiated by the United States where we invaded another country....for no reason.....and MILLIONS of people died?

1)see link http://www.pollkatz.homestead.com/f...istics_2003.htm
http://www.pollkatz.homestead.com/f...istics_2003.htm
2) No.You said that.Read what I wrote.
3) Vietnam.
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Old 21-08.-2006, 10:23 PM   #53
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Default Re: Fidel Castro
Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
Does America have great medical schools? I couldn't possibly say whether it has or not.
you're right. you can't. because that would require a bit of objectivity.

Quote:
I've been to Cuba twice - there is academic freedom, religious freedom, personal freedom.
Freedom of the press? They do have a State press agency.
But so does your country and my country.
are you serious? personal freedom? as in...they're free to do and say exactly what castro says or they can rot in jail? lol. tell that to my sister who has spent time smuggling bibles into the country.
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Old 21-08.-2006, 10:43 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by BillM

US War of Aggression in the last 100 years listed out......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ions_since_1945
List of United States military history events - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 21-08.-2006, 10:50 PM   #55
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Default Re: Fidel Castro
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Originally Posted by cheapie
you're right. you can't. because that would require a bit of objectivity.

are you serious? personal freedom? as in...they're free to do and say exactly what castro says or they can rot in jail? lol. tell that to my sister who has spent time smuggling bibles into the country.
The Constitution of Cuba guarantees freedom of religion.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Const...ND_GUA RANTEES
Constitution of Cuba - Wikisource
Does the US government allow your sister to travel to Cuba?
Does US law allow your sister to export bibles to Cuba?
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Old 21-08.-2006, 10:56 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by stevebaby
The Constitution of Cuba guarantees freedom of religion.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Const...ND_GUA RANTEES
Constitution of Cuba - Wikisource
Does the US government allow your sister to travel to Cuba?
Does US law allow your sister to export bibles to Cuba?

not sure what your point is. an economic embargo on another country is the same as not allowing one's citizens to have bibles?

and my sis smuggled them in personally. she didn't mail them.
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Old 21-08.-2006, 11:06 PM   #57
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not sure what your point is. an economic embargo on another country is the same as not allowing one's citizens to have bibles?

and my sis smuggled them in personally. she didn't mail them.
And presumably...the Cuban government allowed her to take them in.
That doesn't sound too repressive.
The US sanctions though....
http://www.cuba.com/Cuba/index.cfm?...95E59AF1ED0660A
Cuba.com.:.Overview of Sanctions - Page 1 of 4http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba
United States embargo against Cuba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 21-08.-2006, 11:09 PM   #58
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And presumably...the Cuban government allowed her to take them in.
Whereas...it would be illegal under US law for her to do that.

no....that's where the smuggling part comes in. she flew out of canada and she and her husband snuck as many as they could through cuban customs.
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Old 21-08.-2006, 11:20 PM   #59
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no....that's where the smuggling part comes in. she flew out of canada and she and her husband snuck as many as they could through cuban customs.
I edited my previous post.It is actually legal to send publications to Cuba,under Cuban law and US law.
Posting them doesn't sound as glamorous as "smuggling" them...and getting a cheap holiday at the same time.
I "smuggled" a Lonely Planet guide into Britain...sshhh,don't tell anyone.
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Old 21-08.-2006, 11:26 PM   #60
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Why take bibles to Cuba at all?
http://www.biblesociety.org/wr_359/359_21.htm
World Report 359 -- April/May 2001 #21 (Cuba)
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