Regarding Gaza

ptlwp

but, love it does take two to tango.......danse macabre.

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"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." Sir Edmund Burke

Wurm

Peace? In Israel/Palestine it'll never exist for long.

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darkboong

Even back then there was a very broad mix of people with differeing faiths - if you believe the Bible.



That does not justify them systematically wiping out a bunch of people that had nothing to do with it whatsoever here and now. Futhermore those people are descended from a line that has it's origins in the region at a time that predates Judaism.



You can disagree as much as you like, but that is what those guys actually said. Israel, you, Mel P, Dan P, can yell it as loud from the treetops as you like, but the actual fact of the matter is that the Hamas and Fatah leadership have quite specifcally stated that they accept Israel's existence and that they are willing to live in a multi-cultural society. This is backed up by several Rabbis, including Orthodox Jews. Your pig-headed ignorance *is* facilitating genocide.



Yeah, it is nonsense. Particularly when you read what Rabbis who have met up with the Palestinian leaders over the years say. In fact it is so far from the truth that one might reasonably conclude that you are working for the IDF's PR crew.



Israel calls for media to be censored all the time too, what is your point ?



You would be categorically wrong too.



They are the exact same stock as the indigenous Jews, regardless of where they came from. The European Zionists are largely of Teutonic and Russian ancestry - they are a different breed. This is confirmed by Genetic studies. By contrast your threadbare claims that somehow only Jews have any kind of Heritage in Israel is solely based on subjective accounts of incomplete historical documents and religious dogma in the form of the Old Testament. I base my argument on Science and Logic, you base your argument on Religious Dogma. In my experience it's nigh on impossible to make a religious zealot accept Science and Logic when it conflicts with their deeply held convictions, so we will continue to disagree.



"Modern Hebrew" isn't even as old as the Palestinian Olive groves that are being bulldozed. Again, I don't see how cultural difference can be used to justify ethnic cleansing in this instance. Both cultures have a long history of co-existance, that could have continued if the Zionists had chosen to allow other cultures to co-exist within Israel. In practice they have adopted an approach of religious intolerance.



The laws of the land categorically discriminate between Jews and Gentiles, the entire state of Israel is built on religious intolerance. Palestinians don't even have Israeli citizenship, they are discriminated against because they were not Jewish when the passports are handed out. You have accepted that millions of people were killed and displaced by the Zionists, that *IS* religious intolerance in my book. I don't see how you can interpret it in any other way.



That is history, that is not the case today.



Actually they don't. The Israelis (and you) claim they don't, but in practice they very much do today (again, see Menachem Fromen's essays), and history confirms that they did in days gone by. His writings are of particular relevence if you wish to explore the religious aspects of the conflict in Israel.



What the fuck relevence does that have to a systematic programe of Ethnic Cleansing on religious lines ? The Chechnya conflict is about regaining independence. The Israeli conflict is about setting up a Jewish state in a majority Muslim land. I don't see much similarity between them aside from people claiming god is on their particular side and using that as an excuse to kill other people.



Indeed, but you have said that Jews have an exclusive right to Israel, which amounts to the same thing. Straight out of the Zionist playbook.



That's how the Israeli Government says it is, but it bears little relation to the facts of the matter (ie: all the evidence you refuse to acknowledge). Until you are prepared to look beyond the Israeli Government for your information you will continue to grossly misrepresent the situation to the material detriment of millions of innocent people who have never lifted a finger against you.

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ptlwp

European Jews were not indigenous to Europe. They came up the Rhine River from the middle east via North Africa after the disaspora and inquisitions. This also has been recorded with DNA.

Although my grandparents came from Russia, that is not where their ancestrage is from. They were in Germany/France first, and pushed east into Russia until the time of Czar Alexander, where most immigrated backto Palestine or the USA. Some however, came up through Czechoslovakia through Turkey, or Russia, and settled in the Caucaucus mountain areas, among others.

The wandering Jews.........still wander.

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"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." Sir Edmund Burke

darkboong

Why would they start lobbing rockets over the border ? It's unlikely to happen at the moment because there is no reason for them to do so.

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darkboong

I can trace back my parentage over 1500 years. Some of my (nominally Christian) ancestors were buried in Jerusalem over 900 years ago. However I don't believe that gives me a legitimate claim to land in Britain, Ireland, Normandy, Finland, Denmark, Belgium, Germany, or indeed Syria and Israel.

Everyone moves around, get used to it.

You and your kin are not unique in that by any means, get used to it.

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darkboong

"Haaretz reported on 5 July that Moshe Sharoni, a member of the Israeli Knesset, publicly called for the extermination of over one million human beings living in Gaza. On the floor of the Israeli parliament, MK Sharoni said that, "We need to obliterate Gaza and call it the City of Murderers, the City of Terrorists.""

Enough said. Sources specified and dated. Please note the man is saying that Israel *NEEDS* to wipe out every last trace of Gaza and it's citizens. That alleged necessity clearly precludes any form of co-existance with the indigenous Gentiles of Gaza. The Nazi mentality lives on in the psyche of their victims.

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darkboong

It only takes one to kill the other. Ask the CPT volunteers who ended up with busted ribs and cracked skulls in Israel, it's a fair bet that they weren't throwing any punches.

From my original post (that you were replying to) :

"The best thing to do is for both sides to quit killing and negotiate full stop,"

Whoa, there must be an echo between your ears...

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ptlwp

Not everyone has some six million incinerated in 5 or so years........darlin'. I think WE ARE pretty unique.

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"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." Sir Edmund Burke

ptlwp

Human beings 1.0 is not ready to live in peace; maybe version 2.5 will be ready, who knows?

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"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." Sir Edmund Burke

ptlwp

Any group of people can find a reason for peace and they can also find a reason for war, if that is what they want.

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"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." Sir Edmund Burke

Carrera

"Even back then there was a very broad mix of people with differeing faiths - if you believe the Bible."

I don't believe in the Bible in the same literal way religous folks do. At any rate, the Canaanites were mainly polytheistic, not monotheistic as Christians, Moslems and Jews are. Many Jews were, as you say, polytheistic when they intermingled with the Canaanites around 1000 B.C.

"Furthermore those people are descended from a line that has it's origins in the region at a time that predates Judaism."

What on Earth have you been reading? This is a bit like saying modern Greeks are direct descendents of the Trojans or Minoans e.t.c. The bulk of Palestinian people probably arrived after the sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans, originating from Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Greece and Italy. Some were even Romans or even Jews. They eventually identified themselves as mainly Arabic-speaking but, as you say, some are Christians.

"but the actual fact of the matter is that the Hamas and Fatah leadership have quite specifcally stated that they accept Israel's existence and that they are willing to live in a multi-cultural society."

I can tell you what I myself read and it was reproduced with the link on Melanie Phillip's website - an official declaration of Hamas. According to what I read they don't recognise Israel at all or that Israel has any historical right to exist. I think everybody knows (even the B.B.C.) that Hamas doesn't recognise Israel. It's the same in Iran too. The Iranian clerics stated Israel should be "wiped off the map".

"Your pig-headed ignorance *is* facilitating genocide."

Er, I don't think George W Bush is particularly influenced by the postings of a mere cyclist such as me on a Soapbox. I mean, I seriously doubt Bush is currently perusing this Soapbox with Condi Rice and saying, "Hey, Condi, you know that Carrera has a few good points so let's take out Iran!"

Come on, be serious!

"In fact it is so far from the truth that one might reasonably conclude that you are working for the IDF's PR crew."

All I have ever stated is that Jewish people have a right to live in their homeland in peace just as Arabs live in their homelands, Iran, Syria, Turkey, Egypt e.t.c. without fanatical terrorists telling them they're imposters and have no right to be there at all e.t.c. e.t.c.

I mean, how greedy can you get? How much land do the Arabs own collectively and in terms of oil wealth? Yet, there's not a shred of democracy to be seen in hardly any of these huge countries. Apparently, none of that vast expanse of oil-rich land is enough to satisfy them since they wish to add Israel to their sphere of influence too. And then what? Europe? India?

"The European Zionists are largely of Teutonic and Russian ancestry - they are a different breed. This is confirmed by Genetic studies."

Hmmm, genetic studies conducted by dodgy Palestinian scholars and funded by suspect departments in the E.U. huh? I wonder what Lenin and Trotsky would reply to the idea of their being a "different breed." I'd also be interested to know your views on the Welsh being the only true Brits and whether perhaps the Scots and English should call ourselves "non British"?

To be honest, it sounds to me like you've been reading a whole pile of propaganda/Eugenics nonsense on the internet with all these weird theories of mythological Palestinian ancestry whose line goes all the way back to the Amorites e.t.c. It's laughable. frankly. I mean, I never stated modern Jewish people or modern Greeks are exactly the same as the Jews and Greeks who lived around 1000 B.C. - but apparently the Palestinians are?

"Modern Hebrew" isn't even as old as the Palestinian Olive groves that are being bulldozed."

I did point out to you that Arabic is a comparatively modern language and that Hebrew is an ancient language. Modern Hebrew differs from ancient Hebrew, of course, just as modern Greek doesn't resemble Homer's Greek verse. Even so, Arabic isn't an ancient language at all and arrived after Latin and Greek. Arabic was derived from Aramaic which is an ancient language, spoken in Israel around the second temple period.

"The laws of the land categorically discriminate between Jews and Gentiles, the entire state of Israel is built on religious intolerance."

So, what about Russians who live in Latvia or Estonia? Do they have the same rights as Latvians or Estonians? Oops, sorry, discrimination is unique to Israel, I forgot! Plus, I'm sure Jews who live in Iran or Syria get the red carpet treatment, correct? Sure, the Iranians bend over backwards to encourage migration from Israel and build synagogues throughout Tehran.

Whose leg are you trying to pull?

"The Israeli conflict is about setting up a Jewish state in a majority Muslim land."

Well, said! Now we know your position:

We the majority don't want any minority with different beliefs and that "dreaded democracy" anywhere near our vast terrain of oil-rich, theocratic land. How's about that for tolerance and diversity! I think you slipped up big time on that one and let the cat out of the bag. If that isn't racism, what is?

"Palestinians don't even have Israeli citizenship"

How many practising Jews have Iranian citizenship? Personally, I think you're losing this argument and I guess, as ever, your only recourse is to try and have my posts banned. Incidentally, I'm not being impolite and am just giving you some information to ponder over.

"Until you are prepared to look beyond the Israeli Government for your information you will continue to grossly misrepresent the situation.."

Actually, I prefer Michael Grant's essays and he writes about Greek history too. I have never read any political material except Melanie Phillips who seems to me to be well-informed. Apart from that, I watch Tim Sebastian and follow the main political debates on T.V.

Let's see if I got this right:
(1)You state the Bible is an authority but claim to be an atheist.
(2)You say the Middle East is a Moslem majority so people who adhere to Judaism (or maybe Christianity?) have no right to be there? ("The Israeli conflict is about setting up a Jewish state in a majority Muslim land").
(3) Israel is an intolerant country but supposedly Iran and Syria embrace other faiths and are a paragon of virtue.
(4) Bush and company are encouraged by my posts (a mere cyclist) to commit genocide.
This is hilarious stuff.
I'm just glad you came out with it and stated you don't like minorities in the confines of a majority and the real reason you don't want a Jewish State in the Middle East is because they're not Moslems.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

So what? I saw Americans in New York carrying placards with "Nuke Em!" after 9/11 took place. Many governments have extremists such as Zhirinovsky in Russia who wanted to dump nuclear waste in the sea by Japan. So far, though, reason and moderation has prevailed.
As for Gaza, if the terrorists continue to fire rockets and kidnap foreigners, I think Israel has every right to do what they should have done years ago - go to war.
Just my view.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."