Regarding Gaza

ptlwp

I think that doing a Carthage deal and starting over from bottom up is the only way to go at this point.

Best wishes to Corpl. Shalit.

__________________
"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." Sir Edmund Burke

darkboong

The best thing to do is for both sides to quit killing and negotiate full stop, however that simply won't happen because Olmert and his pals appear to think that all Palestinians are Terrorists and they have categorically stated that they won't negotiate with terrorists.



Israel has to stop arresting, maiming and killing it's negotiating partners too. See Menachem Froman's recent peace efforts being quashed by Shin Bet.

__________________
Free Beer !

Carrera

Your post appears to be a bit one-sided, Darkboong. You start off by stating "both sides" should get their act together and then you go on to blame Israel (same as the U.N. has done). You left out the kidnappings by Palestinian militants and the constant rocket atacks.
I confess I did see the images of Palestinian civilians suffering hardship on the news last night and, of course, I felt sorry for their situation and I do think Israel should make sure the Red Cross is allowed access to Gaza to give essential aid. I accept your view Israel is often guilty of being heavy-handed but, as I said before, just look how the U.S. behaved in Serbia with the bombings of power plants, churches and even the Chinese Embassy! At that time the U.N. said nothing.
The problem from the Israeli perspective is they wanted to get out of Gaza and they did make concessions. The Palestinians could have made a decent attempt at running their own show. They would have received money from the U.N., business investment and all sorts of help. This would have led to a Palestinian State that Israel would have eventually recognised.
However, I think Palestinians made a terrible mistake electing Hamas. Rather than actually help the Palestinian people do something constructive, Hamas has been blinded by pure hatred of Israel, using foreign money to build rockets and digging tunnels across the border.
The problem with Hamas is their hatred of Israel is so deep-rooted they will never admit Israel has a historical, cultural history in the region and flatly refuse to compromise.
So, yes, I feel sorry for innocent Palestinians caught up in this crisis but I do think the kidnappings and rocket fire has to stop.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

darkboong

Have you looked into the Menachem Froman story yet Carrera ? Google is your friend...

By the same token you haven't mentioned the body count over the last 6 months, the number of artillery shells dropped on Gaza over the last 6 months, the number of bullets fired and the number of children *killed* in Gaza over the last 6 months. Or for that matter you haven't mentioned the millions of displaced and killed Palestinians if you want to go back to 1947.

You accuse me of being one-sided yet you consistently fail to mention any of that and you consistently fail to discuss or even recognise those basic facts.



The UN did say something, but the US vetoed any motions in the Security Council. As far as Israel murdering men, women, children and "militants" goes over the past few weeks/months/years the US has consistently supported them by vetoing UN censure, and repeatedly issuing statements to the tune of "Israel has the right to defend itself".

By contrast I can't recall either you (pwltp for that matter) endorsing the right of Palestinians to defend themselves. They need to because the state of Israel clearly fails to protect them. If the state of Israel was inclusive and adequately protected all of it's civillians we would not be having this argument (again).



What concessions precisely ? They took the land by force, and imprisoned over 40% of the male population in the first place.



That would have required Israel's co-operation to work. Israel has been shooting Palestinian policemen since the word go (you can't have law and order without an effective police force, a dead policeman is not an effective policeman). Israel has continued to attack government offices and officers since the word go. Israel has even undermined their preferred Palestinian leader (Abbas), they refused to make any kind of concession or even deal with him, and they never observed or even bothered to recognise the unilateral ceasefire that Abbas brokered.



That is categorically false. I have already provided plenty of evidence to the contrary. I can only conclude that you have chosen to ignore evidence because you wish to justify the mass torture and murder of Palestinians.



As of the 18th of June 2006:
"According to the Palestinian Ministry of Health, IDF artillery fire has killed 47 Palestinians, including 11 children and five women, and injured 192 others since September 2005." - Taken from an ISM article.

Quite clearly the Israelis have to stop killing people as well. It's no good pretending it's a Palestinian only problem, the Israelis have been killing Palestinians before during and after the home made rockets started falling out of the skies.

It's always Peace when the Palestinians are dead with Sharon and Olmert, it's never Peace today.

__________________
Free Beer !

Carrera

"By contrast I can't recall either you (pwltp for that matter) endorsing the right of Palestinians to defend themselves."

I don't really accept that digging tunnels to carry out kidnappings is self-defence. I think we differ here. I believe the actions that led Israel to extreme measures can be summed up as banditry and terrorism. You appear to be likening defence to terrorism and I think the two concepts are different.

"By the same token you haven't mentioned the body count over the last 6 months, the number of artillery shells dropped on Gaza over the last 6 months, the number of bullets fired..."

Here you seem to be basing your argument on who has committed the worst sins rather than stating the actual violence perpretated by people as a whole is wrong. Again, I raise the point that you tend to keep quiet about Russia and Chechnya. The Russians declared every Chechnyan male over 16 as a terrorist - period. Israel hasn't been as heavy handed as Russia yet you seldom mention Russia?
So, you raised this post about Gaza but why not Chechnya or maybe, at least, some comparisons drawn with heavy handed army practices in other countries during conflict? How about Iraq and the Kurds that were attacked with chemical weapons, for example?
Nothing said.

"If the state of Israel was inclusive and adequately protected all of it's civillians we would not be having this argument (again)."

How is Israel going to include Hamas, that's the snag? Sure, it can include peaceful Palestinians but what about the terrorists? I read a Hamas declaration not so long ago which stated Hamas would attack Israel from within via suicide bombings. You can't simply throw borders open to those who hate you and claim you have no right to exist as a State.

"What concessions precisely ? They took the land by force, and imprisoned over 40% of the male population in the first place."

O.K. this is true. But where would Israelis be now without Israel? I've been accused of distorting the facts here but I still maintain Jewish people don't feel secure in France and some parts of Europe. On two occasions, the Israeli President has appealed to Jewish people to return to Israel from France. The French themselves even protested over the killing and kidnapping of a Jewish man in France. Also, did you notice the kidnapped soldier that triggered this current conflict has French/Jewish nationality, according to what I heard on the Beeb?
Whichever way you read it, Europe has a history of anti-semitism and the old ghosts may well be resurfacing. Maybe Israel wants to show Jewish people worldwide that you can persecute Jews in France but if you do it in Israel proper, there is retaliation.

"I can only conclude that you have chosen to ignore evidence because you wish to justify the mass torture and murder of Palestinians."

The problem is this: Although I take Israel's side on this matter, I don't base my argument on reciting to you various endless wrongs I think Hamas may have perpetrated. I mean, I can see rights and wrongs on both sides. I don't take the view Israel is 100 per cent just and the Palestinians are totally wrong.
Yet, your own arguments are emotional and less analytical. The debate consists of recitals of terrible wrongs committed by Israel and no mention of Hamas's rocket attacks e.t.c. There is no stepping back and looking at the problem as a complex issue based on culture, politics and history.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Wurm

Sounds like someone else we all know and hate...

"Yer either fer us er 'ginst us!" *smirk* *blink*

Attached Thumbnails

 

__________________
"Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense."

- John Dean, former Counsel to the President (Nixon)

The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.

darkboong

They "kidnapped" a soldier, and man who would have otherwise been cruising around Gaza in a tank, quite probably shelling Palestinian civillians. Sounds like self defence to me, at the very least it is not as aggressive, indiscriminate or destructive as shelling the most densely populated area on Earth for the last 10 months with 155mm Howitzers. Please note that 155mm rounds have a dispersion radius of 370m and a kill zone (against people in body armor) of 50m, there is no way you can aim such an indiscriminate weapon at the most densely populated area on Earth without expecting to kill civillians.



Attacking a heavily armed military target that has an active role in killing civillians is *not* terrorism, it is warfare. If they blew up a bus of school children I would class it as terrorism. Please explain to me why attacking military target is terrorism but shelling a bunch of families on a beach is not ?



In actual fact I was responding to fact that you asserted that the Israeli's were provoked by an unprovoked attack. That simply doesn't make sense given the timeline of events and the context of occupation and sustained attack on the Palestinians and their land over the last 50 odd years.



Russia has been quite rightly censured for that, although it is of course endorsed by Israel and the US. Two countries that are hip deep in the blood of Muslims right now.



Israel has been very heavy handed. Israel has expelled and killed over 2 million Palestinians. Israel even went to the trouble of setting up refugee camp massacres of unarmed women and children in Lebanon (Sabra/Shatilla). Israel is also substantially closer to home than Chechnya and I also think that it could be a very good place to build a bridge between the West and Islam as a whole. Chechnya simply does not register on my radar as strongly and I know far less about it, so I don't comment much, although I have pointed out (in opposition to you) that Russia has been particularly brutal and misguided in Chechnya. I was one of the guys who was hoping Lebed might actually persuede that nasty piece of vodka soaked shit, Yeltsin, to pursue peace rather than war.



I have mentioned that on numerous occasions you liar.



Israel doesn't make any distinction between "Peaceful" Palestinians and "Terrorists". The situation re: land ownership, travel rights, citizenship (particularly with mixed culture marriages) and the rest gives the lie to that. Until Israel actively pursues dialog and equal rights for Palestinians within it's borders I can't see any way forward. At present they don't even officially recognise the existence of Palestinians, go figure the rest out.



Fuck knows, but one this is for sure they wouldn't be building swimming pools on the bulldozed villages of dead and displace Palestinians.



Maybe they just want to kill more Palestinians, destroy more of their homes and more of their farmland - just as they have been doing with little respite for the last 50 years. You simply can't justify indiscriminate retaliation against civillians, it is a cruel and criminal act by definition, whoever does it, whether they wear a uniform or not.



Actually, you do. The reason why you don't cite specific acts is because you don't do any research into the matter, and if you did you would find that the body count is overwhelmingly in favour of the very much unoppressed Israeli side. If you're talking Old Testament eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, the Israelis are already owing 4000+ corpses to the Palestinians for the last 5 years alone. That is an average of 2 Palestinians killed by Israeli violence every single day, and that is a relatively *quiet* period when compared to some in Israel's history.



In practice Carrera the rocket attacks rarely cause serious damage or death or injury. Do yourself a favour and present some statistics detailing the number of deaths and injuries resulting from rocket attacks from September 2005. They are there to be found, then compare them to the statistic I presented regarding the fatalities and injuries from IDF artillery over the same period.

If you do that honestly you will see that Israel could simply quit killing for 6 months, and ask the Palestinians to do the same. At the current mortality rates they would still be well ahead of the game (I use the word advisedly, see Dov Weisglass) after 6 months. During that 6 months they could offer unconditional talks, they don't have to agree to anything, just talk, get to know each other, build a bridge. After the 6 months is up they can go back to 24x7 shelling of civillian targets, starvation, dehydartion, and destroying farmland. The only thing they lose is killing ~500 Palestinians and maybe ~2 civillians, that is a pretty small opportunity cost for a PR coup.

That doesn't seem like too much of a concession to me.

__________________
Free Beer !

Carrera

"They "kidnapped" a soldier, and man who would have otherwise been cruising around Gaza in a tank, quite probably shelling Palestinian civillians."

Yes, but they also kidnapped a female British girl who travelled to Gaza to support the Palestinian cause. There has been a trend of kidnappings in Gaza City. The situation had been getting considerably worse of late.

"Attacking a heavily armed military target that has an active role in killing civillians is *not* terrorism, it is warfare. If they blew up a bus of school children I would class it as terrorism. Please explain to me why attacking military target is terrorism but shelling a bunch of families on a beach is not ?"

I wasn't under the impression the Palestinians were actually at war with Israel after the pull-out from Gaza. I wonder if those kidnappers wore any uniform or insignia when they crossed the border? Who knows? At any rate, digging a tunnel across the border and kidnapping military personel is an act of war in my book. If the Hamas Government is going to carry out such actions then surely they owe Israel an official declaration of war, issued to Israel on behalf of the Palestinain people they claim to represent. If they do that, then I'll agree with you, it's O.K. to target soldiers in conflict. What confuses me is how come Hamas is asking for E.U. intervention after Israel retaliated, though? Either it's war or it's peace.

"Israel has been very heavy handed. Israel has expelled and killed over 2 million Palestinians."

Sure, I will concede that point. I do think Israel should do it's level best to reduce civilian casualties and, especially, allow total access to the Red Cross. Everybody knows Israel has been heavy handed with the Palestinians which is why the U.S. criticized them too in the past. However, let's bear in mind London has so far had one terrorist bombing and yet plain clothes security forces pumped several bullets into a "suspected" terrorist's head in the metro.
So, I ask how will the U.K. deal with suspects if there are the same number of daily terrorist attacks in London as there are in Telaviv?

"Until Israel actively pursues dialog and equal rights for Palestinians within it's borders I can't see any way forward. At present they don't even officially recognise the existence of Palestinians, go figure the rest out."

I saw a recent Beeb documentary where they asked Israelis to draw up their ideal map of the Middle East. Several of those asked in the street included a Palestinian State in their map and wanted a peaceful co-existance. Some Israelis did say they wanted no Palestinian State but that's only a percentage of the people as a whole. Personally I think most Israelis want out of Gaza altogether and to see the Palestinians running their own show with their own borders.

"I have mentioned that on numerous occasions you liar."

Please note, you were the first to take the discussion personally and I don't recall myself shouting names online. Plus, when your arguments face a serious challenge we have this inevitable call for myself to be banned. yet I found many arguments similar to mine on the BBC internet which surprised me.







Sounds like self defence to me, at the very least it is not as aggressive, indiscriminate or destructive as shelling the most densely populated area on Earth for the last 10 months with 155mm Howitzers.


Attacking a heavily armed military target that has an active role in killing civillians is *not* terrorism, it is warfare. If they blew up a bus of school children I would class it as terrorism. Please explain to me why attacking military target is terrorism but shelling a bunch of families on a beach is not ?



In actual fact I was responding to fact that you asserted that the Israeli's were provoked by an unprovoked attack. That simply doesn't make sense given the timeline of events and the context of occupation and sustained attack on the Palestinians and their land over the last 50 odd years.



Russia has been quite rightly censured for that, although it is of course endorsed by Israel and the US. Two countries that are hip deep in the blood of Muslims right now.



Israel has been very heavy handed. Israel has expelled and killed over 2 million Palestinians. Israel even went to the trouble of setting up refugee camp massacres of unarmed women and children in Lebanon (Sabra/Shatilla). Israel is also substantially closer to home than Chechnya and I also think that it could be a very good place to build a bridge between the West and Islam as a whole. Chechnya simply does not register on my radar as strongly and I know far less about it, so I don't comment much, although I have pointed out (in opposition to you) that Russia has been particularly brutal and misguided in Chechnya. I was one of the guys who was hoping Lebed might actually persuede that nasty piece of vodka soaked shit, Yeltsin, to pursue peace rather than war.



I have mentioned that on numerous occasions you liar.



Israel doesn't make any distinction between "Peaceful" Palestinians and "Terrorists". The situation re: land ownership, travel rights, citizenship (particularly with mixed culture marriages) and the rest gives the lie to that. Until Israel actively pursues dialog and equal rights for Palestinians within it's borders I can't see any way forward. At present they don't even officially recognise the existence of Palestinians, go figure the rest out.



Fuck knows, but one this is for sure they wouldn't be building swimming pools on the bulldozed villages of dead and displace Palestinians.



Maybe they just want to kill more Palestinians, destroy more of their homes and more of their farmland - just as they have been doing with little respite for the last 50 years. You simply can't justify indiscriminate retaliation against civillians, it is a cruel and criminal act by definition, whoever does it, whether they wear a uniform or not.



Actually, you do. The reason why you don't cite specific acts is because you don't do any research into the matter, and if you did you would find that the body count is overwhelmingly in favour of the very much unoppressed Israeli side. If you're talking Old Testament eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, the Israelis are already owing 4000+ corpses to the Palestinians for the last 5 years alone. That is an average of 2 Palestinians killed by Israeli violence every single day, and that is a relatively *quiet* period when compared to some in Israel's history.



In practice Carrera the rocket attacks rarely cause serious damage or death or injury. Do yourself a favour and present some statistics detailing the number of deaths and injuries resulting from rocket attacks from September 2005. They are there to be found, then compare them to the statistic I presented regarding the fatalities and injuries from IDF artillery over the same period.

If you do that honestly you will see that Israel could simply quit killing for 6 months, and ask the Palestinians to do the same. At the current mortality rates they would still be well ahead of the game (I use the word advisedly, see Dov Weisglass) after 6 months. During that 6 months they could offer unconditional talks, they don't have to agree to anything, just talk, get to know each other, build a bridge. After the 6 months is up they can go back to 24x7 shelling of civillian targets, starvation, dehydartion, and destroying farmland. The only thing they lose is killing ~500 Palestinians and maybe ~2 civillians, that is a pretty small opportunity cost for a PR coup.

That doesn't seem like too much of a concession to me.[/QUOTE]

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

Here is a list of kidnappings conducted in Gaza over the months to prove to you Hamas in a terrorist organization that doesn't operate within the constraints of military warfare. The problem is when I present any of this information I'm instantly accused of pulling it all out of a magic hat.
What I'm trying to get across, however, is that Gaza has become increasingly lawless with indicriminate rocket attacks and kidnappings.

"(1)The director of International Red Cross in Gaza was kidnapped by gunmen

(2)Two French citizens and a Korean were seized from a hotel in Gaza City by gunmen, one of whom was shot dead by security forces

(3)A British Council cultural centre in Gaza was set ablaze and an EU compound stormed

(4)The border crossing between Gaza and Egypt shut for the day after European monitors withdrew because of security threats

(5)An American teacher at the Arab American University in Jenin, in the northern West Bank, was held briefly by militants

(6)Two Australian teachers were held by militants in northern Gaza for two hours before being released

(7)Palestinian militants from the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades in Gaza City warned US and UK nationals to leave the Palestinian territories immediately.

"In practice Carrera the rocket attacks rarely cause serious damage or death or injury. Do yourself a favour and present some statistics detailing the number of deaths and injuries resulting from rocket attacks from September 2005."

The intention behind it is to kill Israelis. If they had skuds, I'm sure these would be used instead.

"That is an average of 2 Palestinians killed by Israeli violence every single day, and that is a relatively *quiet* period when compared to some in Israel's history."

Israel has the biggest army in the Middle East and Hamas is a small, not very professional organization so I agree it's a one-sided fight, in one sense. So, Palestinian casualties are higher. However, my own view is Hamas started this present conflict and now it appeals to the U.N. when there is retaliation.
If I were in the Israeli position I'd perhaps do this: Cease the military incursion, allow the U.N. and Red Cross total access to Gaza with the stipulation that the U.N. itself should stop the rocket attacks and take charge of the situation.
I don't think the IDF wants to be in Gaza at all.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

darkboong

You were talking about the Israeli soldier to the exclusion of all other events. I responded appropriately. Furthermore they Hamas government actually helped secured her release.



Kinda hard not to be in a state of war when IDF shells are raining down on your towns, snipers are shooting your kids at checkpoints and where they sit in their school rooms, IDF bulldozers flattening your houses, IDF planes dropping bombs, IDF tanks firing on demonstrations. Furthermore you must not forget about the West Bank and Jerusalem, in both areas where the Israelis are actively taking more land from Palestinians, imprisoning and killing more of them.



Who gives a fuck. No one but a moronic boy scout would believe that all military engagements are carried out by uniformed servicement in broad daylight... Use your loaf. Newsflash for you : the IDF regularly sends in hit squads into Gaza and the West Bank in mufti, nothing is fair in war at least.



They don't owe the Israelis an iota. Quite the reverse.

For the record Israeli government and military sources have claimed that the attack was planned and financed by a guy in Damascus behind the back of the Hamas politicians in Gaza, Jerusalem and the West Bank. Hell, they'll probably attack Syria as well just in case.



It is logically impossible for Israel to "Retaliate" when it has been continually shelling Gaza with 155mm artillery since September 2005, and attacking Gaza with ASMs and 1000kg bombs. All they've done is changed the tools of the trade, they've switched from using standoff weapons to battlefield weapons.



Sure, but that counts for fuck all until the Israeli government gets onboard. See Menachem Froman's writings on the matter.



You lied, I called it.



The BBC is hardly a bastion of evidence itself. This is the same BBC that chose to print the IDF version of the Beach killings without any comment, but chose to relegate the qualified eye-witness story a couple of lines that crucially omitted the specifics, namely that eye-witness was qualified to judge whether it was a mine explosion or a shell explosion, and that he found a shell fragment at the blast site with markings on it that is consistent with the ammunition fired by the IDF's SP Howitzers.

I have noticed that there are some remarkable semantic contortions in the articles regarding Israel. There appears to be a large amount of rewriting of articles going on, sometimes you can even see it happening. Have you noticed how the pictures frequently don't match up to the tone of the story too ?

There appears to be an editorial battle going on there.

I would dearly love to be in a position to praise the Israeli and Palestinian leadership for brokering an enduring and just peace, but quite frankly that just is not possible.

__________________
Free Beer !

Carrera

I don't have time to respond to all of these points right now as I have my bike training session to do - and then painting e.t.c. At any rate.....:

"Furthermore you must not forget about the West Bank and Jerusalem, in both areas where the Israelis are actively taking more land from Palestinians, imprisoning and killing more of them."

Many times I tried to emphasise to you that this whole business of Israel "stealing land" is a fabrication. In the past, I gave many reasons based on ancient history to stress that Jewish people have been occupying this land for thousands of years. They were actually ethnically cleansed by invasions of Assyria, Babylon and Rome. It was the Romans who made a province out of Israel under the emperor Hadrian and he punished Jews for rebellion against the Roman State - same as the Greeks.
The current population of Palestininians moved into Gaza over past centuries and settled in the region while most Jews were scattered throughout Europe and Russia. It was the Jewish people who were actually ethnically cleansed and displaced.
Last time I perused a BBC forum on the Israeli/Palestinian issue, I was surprised that more people have become aware the Palestinians are ignoring accepted history and many folks on the BBC forum were actually laying some of the blame on the Palestinians for a change. The fact is, according to Hamas, Israel has no right to exist - period.
Moreover, my position is hardly an extreme one. I believe the Palestinians are entitled to a State of their own and have no problem with that. My objection is that I don't accept this false idea that Jews "stole" land when, in truth, they "reoccupied" their homeland by force.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Wurm

For your perusal:




http://onlinejournal.com/artman/pub...ticle_986.shtml

__________________
"Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense."

- John Dean, former Counsel to the President (Nixon)

The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.