Mail Condemns Guantanamo Abuses

limerickman

Here is a selection of links that show that Aramaic preceeded Hebrew :

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/v...search=language


In the Middle Ages it was a prevailing opinion that Hebrew was the primitive speech of mankind. This view was based on "etymologies and other data in the early chapters of Genesis [comp. Berliner, "Beiträge zur Hebräischen Grammatik," p. 9; König, "Hebräisch und Semitisch," pp. 113 et seq.], which, however, were as plausibly turned by Syriac writers in favor of their own tongue" ("Encyc. Bibl." ii. 1987; comp. Audo, "Syriac Dict." Preface). A similar opinion was expressed by Rab (Sanh. 38b).
Medieval Jewish scholars considered Arabic and Aramaic, the only cognate languages known to them, as corruptions of Hebrew.
In more recent times, however, two opposing theories have been held. One, whose chief exponent is S. D. Luzzatto, is that Hebrew is derived from Aramaic; the other, whose chief exponent is Olshausen, is that it is derived from Arabic. D. S. Margoliouth ("Lines of Defense of Biblical Tradition," and "Language of the Old Testament," in Hastings, "Dict. Bible," iii. 25 et seq.) claims that Hebrew is nothing but a vulgar dialect of Arabic.

http://www.krysstal.com/writing_hebrew.html

The Hebrew alphabet is over 2200 years old. It is derived from Aramaic and is used for both ancient Hebrew (the language of Judaism) and the modern language of Israel, Ivrit.



http://www.lycos.com/info/aramaic-alphabet.html

The modern Hebrew alphabet as used in Israel today and the standard Hebrew alphabet used in today's Hebrew Bible is in fact derived from the Aramaic alphabet. It was used by Israel at the time of their Babylonian captivity

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

Let's take your theory about only the Jewish scribes being able to understand Aramaic.

If this is the case - why then were Jewish Patriarchs expressed in Aramaic and not Hebrew, language?

If your theory is correct (and it's not) : the Jewish Patriarches would have been expressed in Hebrew, not Aramaic.

You are contradicting yourself, left, right and centre, Carerra.

Aramaic preceeded Hebrew : even the Jews themselves admit it.

Not that language has anything to do with 1948, it is you who introduced the concept of language in order to try to justify the land grab of 1948.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

Hmmmmmm.

I have my doubts as to the validity of a lot of American views about what goes on in the rest of the world, Carerra.

Look at some of the posts about the Marshall Plan and Vietnam, just two instances, where factually incorrect information was given by American posters here.

I agree with Fred - they're ill equiped to discuss the Near/Middle East situation too.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Carrera

Let's get this straight. Whoever wrote the article you posted is claiming Hebrew is derived from Arabic? Arabic never existed as a language at that period which is why you will never find any ancient script (of the years B.C. written in Arabic).
I don't know where you're getting this information from but it's way off course. I can't see even Fred defending the idea Hebrew is a dialect of Arabic (although nothing would surprise me these days).
As for Aramaic, well, that's a more serious question. Most scholars believe it was derived from proto-Canaanite and many students believe Arabic was formed from Aramaic.
Any linguist will tell you Arabic isn't a particularly old language - even the introduction of a Arab grammar book will tell you that. I also have a friend in Spain with a degree in Arabic who will gladly clear that one up.

Carrera

Probably your referring to certain books in the Bible that were written in Aramaic. As I said before, in the 2nd Temple period and beyond, Jews had bilingual texts in Hebrew and Aramaic and eventually they simply adopted Aramaic as the lingua franca.
The trouble with all of this is, either you accept the Old Testament account or disregard it. Those poor guys sitting on the wall, at the end of the day, didn't understand what the heck was going on when they were addressed in Aramaic language by the envoy so Hebrew had to be used. That's what the account states. It indicates a period in Jewish history when Hebrew was still a vulgar tongue people used in the street and not the later period when finally all Jews spoke Aramaic language.
Even so, Hebrew was always reserved for formal activities, choirs and prayers.

Carrera

Apparently you have the city Americans who have a fairly good educational level and the country folk who read the good book and play the fiddle by night - as John Denver put it in one of his songs.
Bush got in, it would seem, by being able to attract the non-urban vote, folks who believed in the good Lord, as it were and saw things in black and white, good and bad.
I think the more educated Americans are not too happy with Bush at present especially due to New Orleans and the abuses of prisoners in Iraq e.t.c.

limerickman

Try reading the three extracts that I published - I even underlined the sentences where they all state Hebrew derived from Aramaic.

The mention of Arabic is in passing when discussing languages in general from that region.

Read the underlined sentences - there is no reference to arabic.
Instead it's Aramaic.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

I made no reference to the OT : I simply stated that if your thesis about Hebrew was factual, how come Aramaic was used by the Jewish Patriarchs?
Seems to me that if Hebrew was in use as you claim - they would use Hebrew

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

I made no reference to Bush or elections or fiddles.

I stated that your reliance upon your American friend may not be wise, given the lack of indpeth knowledge that most Americans appear to have about events and issues outside of their own country.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

FredC

Even so, and we will continue to do so is that your Zionist stance based on hermeneutics is completely unfounded in any way, shape, or form. Now get out of that one.

__________________
The media is a self perpetuating publicity stunt.

jhuskey

Point of order please.
When referring to most Americans please note that the majority know nothing of this forum and do not post here.
As to Carreras comments,generalizing that a person is less adept by being rural rather than urban is stereotyping and is way incorrect, and so far as Bush's popularity... it has little to do with Iraqs prisons and New Orleans and more to do with the economy as it relates to our life style and how much money is in our bank account and that most hate war in general and want out of Iraq.
Trust me I live here.
As far as knowledge of the world some of us do not believe the "biased media" always and believe that the world is in such a chaotic flux, with emotions and irrationality involved in the entire make-up, that we hesitate to draw ultimate conclusions and project ourselves as having the Holy Grail of answers and treatment for the world woes.
I will agree with Carreras philosophy, that by studying history we can grasp a better understanding of what is going on now,however do not limit yourself to one or two civilizations as they all have something to teach us.
Man unfortunately is slow to learn from mistake already made.

BTW: A Fiddle is the same instrument as a Violin played in a different manner. I have not the skills to play either.

This will conclude my first installment of my Thursday morning rant.
Next Ranter please.

__________________
Whenever I can't get excited about riding I just fantasize about someone else's bike.

Carrera

The main thing that gives your article way is this:
"the other, whose chief exponent is Olshausen, is that it is derived from Arabic. D. S. Margoliouth ("Lines of Defense of Biblical Tradition," and "Language of the Old Testament," in Hastings, "Dict. Bible," iii. 25 et seq.) claims that Hebrew is nothing but a vulgar dialect of Arabic."
Now I'll put this question to everybody on the forum who's following this discussion and ask one simple question: Doesn't the phrase, "nothing but a vulgar dialect" indicate disdain or scorn or emotional bias on the part of the publisher?
Come on, be honest.
No serious student would even quote material that claims Hebrew was derived from Arabic in the first place (like trying to claim Latin derived from Italian) and then argue Hebrew was derived from Aramaic.
I repeat: Everybody who studies this subject agrees Aramaic was derived from proto Canaanite and arrived in Israel far later on.

Carrera

And I suppose Moses spoke Aramaic too?
Lim, you've quoted the Old Testament on numerous occasions to me before and now you apparently gloss over my text references. The references I provided make it pretty clear Jews at that period couldn't understand the Aramaic language and had to be addressed in their own tongue. The only Jews who understood Aramaic were an educated elite.
There is also more evidence apart from that, inscriptions, texts, excavations e.t.c.
The mainstream classics students, archeologists e.t.c state Aramaic was not spoken in Israel during the first Temple Period. They obviously know what they're talking about and have based these conclusions on reliable evidence. The trouble with all these alternative ideas is they come from dubious sources and are written by people who don't accept the history of Israel and wish to emphasise this idea the Palestinians were there first, which isn't true since the Canaanites (closely related to Jews) first inhabited Israel.

Carrera

Point taken. I was kind of thinking of the Bible belt States that voted for Bush but I take your point that many Bible-belt states aren't backwater territories in the sense of country-bumpkin land.
My guess is education in America isn't as bad as we assume in Europe. Also when I was in Spain you would always find people who wrote "Vamos" as "bamos" simply because you pronounce the "b" sound.
Education in Spain seemed to me to be way behind Russia since in Russian schools the kids spoke good English and French, especially German.
In Europe, we probably trail behind China and Japan in education.