Mail Condemns Guantanamo Abuses

Carrera

Nope, I didn't say that. I stated that liturgical Hebrew was the surviving language from a series of languages that died out from the source of a whole group of languages.
It was spoken in Israel before Aramaic spread to Israel around 400 B.C.
Another point is I never said the Jews were the first to inhabit Israel. They were not. Although Jews were closely related to the Canaanites, the Canaanites inhabited the promised land prior to the Jews or Hebrews. These Canaanites worshipped a variety of gods but the Jews were monotheistic, the same as Moslems are.
Moslems believe in only one god Allah. Jews believe in only one god Yahweh.
At certain points throughout history, Jerusalem was also taken by the Israelites by force - David once conquered it.
Of course, the ancient Egyptians were far older than the Jewish culture and it's thought that the whole exodus was a mixture of escaped Jews and other groups that simply left, together with various other nationalities.

limerickman

yep, you did say that Hebrew was the oldest language in that land.

And you completely disregarded Aramaic.



your information is once again - incorrect.





You did.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

jhuskey

I thought Sumerian was the oldest language,there again I am not old enough to remember.

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Sobriety is over rated!

Carrera

The accusation made by Islamic clerics is that the Jews stole "our" land, so to speak. I was watching TV the other night when they had a cleric who said just that and no opposition was forth-coming. What a pity.
So, what I essentially did was to take this repeated statement and show how old Jewish culture actually is compared with Islamic culture. By Islamic culture, I don't mean to indicate the Persians or Assyrians since these peoples were not Islamic, although they did invade Israel or ethnically cleanse Jewish people in their day (Babylonian exile for one), just as the Persians attempted to subdue Europe under Darius.
The Hebrew language is grouped together with Phoenician, Moabite and Canaanite - that's what I said in several posts. I always maintained Canaanites preceded Jews but that doesn't nullify the fact Israel had their Empire (Judah and Israel) as far back as 1000 B.C. which is old enough. The language they spoke was Hebrew not Aramaic which came later.
I base the right of Jews to reside in the Holy Land based on linguistic evidence and religion/culture. Judaism is the oldest world religion that originates from the Middle East - older by far than Christianity and far older than Islam. I also base my claim on the fact this right was disputed by war and Israel won that conflict. War has always been the ultimate decider of territorial conflict.
Overall, I concluded the Palestinians should be given a Palestinian State removed from Israel with their own borders but I maintain that if they still keep firing rockets and refuse to accept Israel's right to govern itself in its ancient land - Israel should go to war. This is my view and I don't think it's unresonable and I doubt I'll never budge from that view as it seem logical to me.

Carrera

Yes, the Sumerians were an old civilization and I seem to recall they weren't a semitic race.

FredC

Right. Now answer my queries/comments on #52 and #53 instead of ignoring them. We don't want you going down the same path again, do we?

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The media is a self perpetuating publicity stunt.

Carrera

Repeat the questions and comments and I'll do my best to answer. It's not Argentina again is it? Funnily enough that old dispute has resurfaced with Chavez taking a dig at Blair, as I recall seeing on the news.

limerickman

1000 BC is old enough but 0BC isn't old enough?
You're a chancer.
I told you that you were a chancer from day one, and now you confirm it.

When I told you that the land occupied by Israel was called Palestine in time of Christ - you said that the time of Christ did not represent ancient history,
Now you use 1,000 prior to Christ to imply that the Jews owned that land.
WHAT ABOUT THE TIME BEFORE THAT?
WHAT ABOUT CHAPTERS 1-34 OF GENESIS?

You're a chancer.

Oh and no one suggested that Jews were not allowed to LIVE in the Holy Land.
People have contended that the creation of a ZIONIST STATE is what is at issue and the theft of land by ZIONISTS.

Finally Aramaic predates Hebrew : hebrew is derived from Aramaic.

Now answer Fred's questions.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

roadhog

This soapbox has officially become a "private club" of sorts. Of all the offensive people on here I would rate Carerra waaaay down the list. Many people jump to personal insults and questionable posts much before Carerra would. This says nothing of my agreement or disagreement with his views - but of his overall conduct. I have rarely agreed with Carerra in my few discussions with people on here - but he is one of the roughly 50% of "regulars" in the soapbox that has NOT aggressively insulted me and become blatantly offensive in posts with me.

Have you noticed that 95% of the posts in the soapbox come from the same group of <10 people? You all insult and demonize any newcomer with anything but views in perfect agreement with the norm - and then carry on lengthy discussions about whether or not to ban people from your little club. Seriously. If you are in search of healthy debate and expanding your horizons, you desperately need to go somewhere else in my opinion.

EoinC

.......OK.

lyotard

it was groucho marx who stated he would not want to belong to any club that would have him as a member.

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"i think it would be a good idea"

-mahatma gandhi, upon being posed the question
"what do you think of western civilization?"

stevebaby

The fact that the us guards its borders means absolutely nothing.Every country guards its borders.
If the number of attempted illegal entrants to the us is compared to the number of people who have no interest in entering the us to live,legally or illegally,then a more realistic picture will be obtained regarding the us as a desirable place to live.
Post 9/11,the embassies of oz and nz were besieged with applications to emigrate, from americans.

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I'm Rooting for Chiara!
Drink!Feck!Arrse!Girls!
bastard

Carrera

O.K., you affirm Aramaic predates Hebrew and that Hebrew was derived from Aramaic. Then how come nobody else on the Classics forum has reached this conclusion? How come experts in the field such as Michael Grant don't agree with this statement?
At best, Aramaic was spoken close to 1000 B.C. outside of Israel, probably as an Eastern dialect of the language. However, everyone on my forum places Aramaic around 800 B.C. so your quarrel is with them, not just with me.
Next point: I didn't say the Jews owned land. I said they have a long history of having been in that land which gives them the same rights as anyone else has. I didn't imply there weren't other races in Israel before the Jews but what I can state with confidence is those people (such as the Jebusites) didn't represent an Islamic culture and that's a crucial point in this debate since it's a debate that has a lot to do with religion.
It's a crucial point because countries such as Iran seek control of the religious sites within Jerusalem and they don't have that assumed right in my opinion. Not if you compare the Judiac culture with the Islamic culture in terms of age. Canaanites were there first, Jews second, Christians after that and finally Moslems.
"and no one suggested that Jews were not allowed to LIVE in the Holy Land."
That may be true. That's where we differ in opinion. My belief is that Jews wouldn't object to Arabs living with them as a community if radical Palestinians were not making the comments they have made in the past or firing rockets. But I appreciate Israelis fears that if Hamas was given half a chance it would use terrorism to drive Israelis out of Jerusalem altogether - which is what the radicals want. I don't see how these 2 communities could live peacefully together so I suggested a compromise - one state for Palestinians and another for Jews. But Darkboong rejected that idea and says it's no good.

Carrera

Here is my challenge to anyone on the forum to prove me wrong and it's open to all. Here is my proof that what the Palestinians really want is control over the religious sites of Jerusalem and the removal of all Jews. Here is proof, plain and simple that the dispute is about religion and the whole idea that Islam supposedly has more claim to the Holy Land than Judaism - which I proved is a theory not backed by history.
Here I quote from the Hamas Covenant and chip in with the odd comment:
http://www.library.cornell.edu/coll...deast/hamas.htm
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered:"
My comment: Islam didn't originate till way after the time of Christ. Prior to that, as far back as 1000 B.C. Jews inhabited Israel and Palestine. So how do they conclude Palestine was meant to be Islamic?
"it, or any part of it, should not be given up...liberation of Palestine is then an individual duty for very Moslem wherever he may be...in the face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised..."
Again you hear the claim, Jews stole Palestine from Moslems. Where were the Moslems in 500 B.C.? Where were the mosques in 60 A.D.? There was no Islamic culture at that time, only pre-Islamic Assyrians or Babylonians. My challenge to anyone is to prove it was there.
The final statement speaks for itself and beggars belief:
"In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness… We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the [Islamic] Umma... introducing fundamental changes in educational curricula in order to cleanse them from all vestiges of the ideological invasion which has been brought about by orientalists and missionaries... "