Mail Condemns Guantanamo Abuses

Carrera

This really has a very simple solution. If I became aware that my views were genuinely causing upset to too many folks it wouldn't be necessary to ban me. I'd simply moderate posting on politics for obvious reasons. The last thing anyone wants is for anyone else to be offended to the point they don't post themselves as a result.
This is the problem with politics and religion and I suspect explains why religious-theme posts weren't welcome in the past.
I confess I have been known to go a wee bit too far or maybe I'm having a bad day and then let blast but I think others sometimes go a bit far too.

Carrera

That's true. To be honest, I don't see myself as radical a character as I've been sometimes painted out to be and I'm baffled when Darkboong sometimes refers to me as an extremist. I hope there isn't a general feeling of myself being an extremist as that would worry me.

jhuskey

Lim, I must say that I don't consider Carreras post to be any more if not less extreme than others that post on the opposite of the fence.
I don't always agree with him or even try to understand some of his views but there are less polite people here than he.
This is of course my perspectve so take it as you will. I enjoy reading the banter as long as it is civil.

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Whenever I can't get excited about riding I just fantasize about someone else's bike.

Felt_Rider

........Agree

Carrera

To understand my views, you could read stuff like Plato, for example. I'm a big fan of the ancient Greeks/applied philosophy and that's where I got my views from. Added to that, I'm influenced by Mike Mentzer who was an American philosophy student - also a sportsman and his own ideas were also formed from ideas formulated in ancient Greece.
"How many people do you know who would take the time and effort to constantly relate instances of real life to abstract philosophical principles in the hope that you would clearly understand the importance of these principles and the value of learning them. This type of person is hard to find, and if you think about it, you will see how valuable Mike Mentzer was and still is today. Since he introduced so many people to philosophy, he could be more readily considered a salesman of philosophy than a personal trainer (without neglecting the fact that he was a great personal trainer and exercise theorist). He introduced a large number of people to Objectivism worldwide and is a phenomenal example of "what one man can do"."

jhuskey

By "understanding" I mean understanding why yourself and others view things as you do. Two individuals with the same information arrive at a totally different conclusion..

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Whenever I can't get excited about riding I just fantasize about someone else's bike.

FredC

You are not a member of the NUJ.
We were not wrong on the Aramaic language.
Since when have I defended Argentina?

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The media is a self perpetuating publicity stunt.

FredC

Where is it stated that both Lim and I support Abu Hamza?
You're heading for big trouble.

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The media is a self perpetuating publicity stunt.

limerickman

But your problem is that you're incapable of self-moderation.
I asked you to moderate your comments, politely from the outset.
You ignored me.

I pointed out the contradictions where you made claims that were patently false and I asked you to moderate and or retract those statements
You didn't.

I suggested to you again last week that you hadn't taken any notice of what I asked you do - you refused to acknowledge or reply to me either publicly or privately.

What am I to do?
I gave you enough latitude to get your house in order.
I asked you politely.
You refused.

I have no other option left.

This isn't a debate.

The onus is on you to put your house in order.
If you can't do so - I will.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

FredC

I can handle myself as you say. What I mainly object to is the falsification from Careera of 'facts' that I have never uttered, and his every excuse to be anti-Moslem (Islam) to any situation that he invents on behalf of a third party as well as his own. I will try to make a simple comparison. If any poster had taken the same stance on Anti-Semitism, as he has taken on Anti-Islam, then they would have been banished long ago, and not necessary by Lim, but by Steve in Oz.
His latest smokescreen refers to Plato philosophy, and existentialism, which is miles off topic.
IMO he is a racist bigot, who has been asked to retract false and insinuating postings. He has failed to do so on all occasions when asked to retract by Lim, and has completely ignored all 'yellow card' warnings to mend his ways, so it looks as though he's asking for a 'red card', and will be going for an early bath.
I don't mind polemics and rhetoric as you know, but I draw the line at defending statements that I have never made. See above.

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The media is a self perpetuating publicity stunt.

Colorado Ryder

Censorship is not the answer. The soapbox exists for a free exchange of ideas. Whether they are factual are not is irrelevant. If they are not factual, that is where Darkboong and yourself come in. You can expose him to be what you say he is.

If we are going to ban people because of false and insinuating and unprovable postings, then we need look no further than Wurm. He has stated that Bush was complicite in 9/11. He has re-hashed a pipeline theory that has been going around since the 1970's. But I don't see anyone asking him to mend his ways. Fair is fair. Lets hold the same standard for Carrera to all other posters.

EoinC

Lim, I am asking you not to ban Carrera. I may not agree with his views, but I do believe he should be allowed to express them. In terms of the effect on others, we are all able to determine when a point has been successfully defended. How are any of us to adjust our views if we are not permitted to bounce them off others.
Freedom of speech is the greatest quality of this forum. If Carrera's postings raise your ire, either rebut them (as you have been doing) or ignore them (as countless millions of the World's populace do).
Banning Carrera will not lead him to change his views (if anything it will reinforce them) and it will prevent the rest of us from hearing them and rebutting them or agreeing with them as is our wont.
Besides, if he were banned from here, he might spend more time getting that canal tub going and become a nautical danger to the waterways of England. That must be prevented at all costs.

limerickman

Bu he has been exposed and yet he continues to post what is factually incorrect.




In fairness to Wurm, he backed up his allegations about Bush by referring and linking the US SENATE COMMISSION REPORT ON 9/11.
How can I be expected to ask Wurm to mend that accusation when he quotes a report from YOUR OWN COUNTRY'S LEGISLATURE?
Did you or anyone challenge Wurm on this ?
No.
Did anyone show where Wurm may have lied?
No.

Fair is fair.

I will cite one instance : Carerra stated 11/2/06 that British police didn't arrest Abu Hamza - look at message 8 on this thread if you don't believe me.
The statement he made in message 8 is a lie.

No can be charged/tried/convicted in a British court unless they have been arrested by the British police.

I have highlighted other instances over the past three weeks showing that what Carerra stated was factually incorrect.

I asked him politely to correct himself.
He refused.
I asked him to moderate himself.
He refused.
I linked his statements to evidence that rebutted his statements.
He refused to acknowledge any of it.

Instead he continued to post statements which were lies.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

EoinC

Fred,
When Carrera (or anyone else) accuses you of making statements that you haven't made and doesn't accept your challenge to provide proof, we all take it that the accusation is false. If the accuser apologises specifically for their error, they may grow a little in our eyes. If they ignore or evade, they may shrink.
We're playing a game of backyard footy here. Even though Lim has an umpire's ticket, we should still be able to play without him bringing a whistle and a set of coloured cards.