It's killing me but..........

RapDaddyo

Whether it's advisable to take a day off after a workout is a function of the total stress of the workout. When I said that I also take a day off after some (high intensity) rides, the rides I'm talking about are ~3 hrs in duration with ~90 minutes of L4-L6 intervals in total. If I did 40 mins of L4 intervals, I wouldn't feel the need to take a day off.

Even though you couldn't do the 140w for three straight days, it sounds as though you have indeed raised your sustainable power to 140w. That's huge! No need to rush it. You'll know it's time to raise your power because it will just be too easy to do your 20 min intervals at your current power. To put it bluntly, it will be boring.

You're making good progress. Don't push it too hard and suffer a setback in the form of a workout you can't complete, leading to feelings of frustration. As I said early on in this thread, this process is like water dripping on a stone. Day-to-day progress is transparent, but month-to-month progress is amazing.

Sillyoldtwit

RD wrote:


I hear what you're saying RD, but perhaps 2 x40 (W140) is just as hard for me at present as your 3 hour stint. I think at the end of the day one has to play it by ear and listen to the body dictates. There's no way I could have done a quality session 3 days on the trot last week. By resting after 2 days of intervals, I think I came back stronger on the 4th day.
However, I shall see what this week brings. Today I did 2 x 20 @140W
without being unduly stretched. If it feels comfortable tomorrow,　I plan to go for 150W on the 3rd day (whenever that maybe)
PS Didn't feel much improvement on the Sunday ride (solo).Perhaps I'm in too
much of a hurry to wipe the floor with my cycling partner.

RapDaddyo

You will almost certainly come back feeling stronger after a day off. Sometimes when you're making the most progress you don't feel strong at all. Then, you get a little rest and it feels as though there's no chain.

You may not "feel" much improvement for several weeks. Then, one day you'll surprise yourself because it will seem as though you're just flying up the hill effortlessly. It's such a cool feeling. I've got a nice little 3.5 mile hill that I ride regularly. A little more than a year ago I was going up the hill at about 6-8mph. Now I'm setting my sights on 18mph. That'll be one awesome ride.

Sillyoldtwit

RD wrote:


I take it that it's not pie in the sky, and you're basing the figure on what you feel you can realistically do. If you do it, that's certainly some improvement in 1 year.

On my Sunday course I have a hill that drags me down to 7kph on the worst bit. Can't imagine going up there at even 18kph never mind 18mph.

Anyway you've certainly inspired me, can't wait til I'm blasting the hills.
I have to take your word at the moment that it will come. I feel like a child with xmas drawing near. A 63 year old child that is!

RapDaddyo

At the moment, I'll be happy when I reach 16mph, but I can begin to see the possibility for riding it faster, especially when I have my full arsenal of technology for pacing.

Yes, it will come. Better to just let it happen rather than having expectations. The way it will happen is that one day you'll go on your Sunday ride and the hills will just appear to have "flattened." They just won't feel as hard and your bike speed will be faster. That's when you'll realize what I call "the magic." It's pretty cool.

Sillyoldtwit

RD said:


Sounds better than sex!!

RapDaddyo

Not even close. But, it beats watching TV.

jeff828

Hey Rap, your right, one day it was there.
Did my first 3x20min & HR was still 10 beats lower then when I started, couldnt even do a third 20min. a month ago

Working out Tue & Thurs 225watts on trainer
Rode 53x16 @80rpm & was at about 80% of max hr 210x80%=168

January was 3x10min HR 180-182
3 weeks in Feb was 2x20min HR 165-170,175 Tried additional 15min, HR 175-180
Yesterday was 3x20min HR 162-170, and still could do another one, maybe another 10min

Is it time to increase the watts so Im back to 2x20min at HR 175


This feels real good, when I ride under HR 175 I feel great, when I ride at Hr 180-185, (89% of max) I start to feel the burn in the legs, leg coordination becomes difficult & mentally it becomes hard and would not be able to do 2x20. Is this an indicator of my lactate threshold?

This only applys to when I am trying to do intervals for a long time on the trainer (there is no soft pedaling like on the road) On the road its no problem riding 180,190s, 200, its usually not for long periods of time like on the trainer.

jeff828

Rap I have one more question/scenario if you dont mind. This relates to the amount of power applied to the rear wheel between a sedatary person who never rode or exercices & a fit rider like yourself.

If you take both people and ride side by side in the same gear at the same speed 25mph, will the wattage output be the same?

I think the unfit guy will produce more wattage since he will have to push harder on the pedals to maintain 25mph than you would, since the PT measures the amount of force being applied to the rear wheel, is my thinking right or wrong?

Thanks again

RapDaddyo

Isn't it cool?

I would. Personally, I like to ride my intervals at ~90% of my maximum for that duration. That's a nice compromise between going so hard that I sort of dread the interval and going so easy I feel like I'm loafing. I sort of trick myself into thinking that 90% is "a piece of cake," in spite of the fact that it is really a pretty high intensity.

I think it's way more complex than that. Andy once wrote a great piece about all the physiological things that occur simultaneously as we increase intensity -- it's a long list.

I agree about long durations on a trainer. Others have said that they adapt after awhile, but I have not ridden a trainer week after week for a long time. I find it hard to ride intervals at the same power, but I think it's mostly mental (and partially ventilation).

RapDaddyo

If the resistance factors are the same (weight, frontal area, rolling resistance, etc.), the power is the same for the fit rider and the untrained rider. In fact, I think even untrained riders can ride at LA's 40K TT power (~450w), they just can't ride at that power for an hour.

Sillyoldtwit

When I see the wattage you guys talk about, I can't believe I'm so far behind.
How do I know for example that the bikes I ride in the gym have been calibrated properly? Of course I don't, but I suppose I have to trust them. They do go up to 300watts, so I assume they're correct. Once did 300 wattts for a few seconds!

I was thinking of checking my FT again next week, but is it really necessary?
I could just go on steadily increasing the wattage in the 2 x 20s. Today did the 2nd straight day of 2x20 (140W) and at the moment feel I can repeat it tomorrow. Last week I had to have a rest day between the 2nd and 3rd interval session. Is there any advantage in doing them in 3 straight days over having a rest in between?

I'll probably look back at these posts in a couple of months or more and say "Did I say that?" I hope so anyway as I grind away at 2 x 20 (200W). 15th of May BTW RD maybe a little ambitious to achieve said target.

TYSON

RapDaddyo

Comparison with others can be pretty depressing. When I look at the power that the top pros can sustain for an hour, I get depressed. I think a more healthy way to look at it is to develop an appreciation for the process and to celebrate your own personal progress. I still marvel at the body's ability to adapt and to develop increased capacity to sustain higher levels of intensity for a given duration. As to the accuracy of the watts readings of the bike at your health club, it doesn't really matter whether it is accurate. It only matters that it is consistent from session to session (i.e., 140w on Wed requires the same intensity as 140w on Tues). It would be nice if it is linear (i.e., 165w is 10% higher intensity than 150w), but even that is not absolutely necessary and many trainers are not linear. The procedure for figuring out what power to ride your intervals at is the same whether the readings are accurate or not -- the procedure I use is to find my max power at a given duration (by trial and error) and then ride my intervals at 90% of that number. You can also cross-check your intensity with your HR.

Some of us go for months without formally testing our FT. What's more important is that you are riding your intervals at a power level that will result in the desired adaptation and even that is a fairly wide band. And, you can figure out those power levels in a whole bunch of ways such as my 90%MP rule above. As to your 2 or 3 days in succession question, I don't think it matters much if at all. I think what matters most is that at the end of the week when you tally up your minutes at L4, what is the total? It sounds to me as though you are doing ~120 mins/wk at L4. Let's look at two extremes for distributing those 120 mins: (1) 3 x 20s on two days with a rest day between; and (2) 17 mins/day every day. I'm not sure there would be any difference in the physiological benefits associated with those two workout plans. 120 L4 mins is 120 L4 mins.

It's too early to say. Let's see what you say about the feasibility of that target along about mid-April.

frenchyge

Looking forward to getting back to the road after a *long* winter on the trainer. On a couple occasions where I've been out on group rides this winter, I later discovered that I'd 'accidentally' busted my mean max power curve by a significant margin.

I feel like I've been putting change into a jar all winter, and the time when I finally get to break it open and see how much is really in there is getting close. First race of the season is in ~1.5 weeks.