It's killing me but..........

Sillyoldtwit

I found the bit I was looking for from RD.

RapDaddyo

Careful, now. Many would be thrilled with an FT of 220W.

You would probably realize more benefit by dropping power (e.g., to 265W) and doing a full 20mins cumulatively. Let's say that 220W is your current FT. 120%FT=264W.

These are good AWC efforts, although again you would probably realize more benefit by dropping power (e.g., to 290W) and doing more of them.

You should track TSS.

I don't think you should be predicting where you will max out, especially since you have no experience with greater volume of high intensity efforts. Just keep celebrating all improvements and, as you said in an earlier post, consolidate a new level before bumping up the intensity (even if it throws your schedule off). I don't gain increases at a steady rate. Rather, they seem to come in a big jump, then nothing for awhile, then another big jump, and so on. The work you did this week isn't going to pay off next week. Maybe next month, but not next week.

Here is the best precursor I can think of for reaching the FT=300W level. When you are doing 5min VO2MAX efforts at 360W, then I think you can begin thinking of reaching FT=300W (after lots of L4s). In my case, it would be 375W because my 5min/60min MP ratio is closer to 1.25. But, I think 1.20 is more common.

jeff828

Rd
Question?
If you do your L4 3x20min at 225watts and do your L5 4x5min at 270 (120% of FT) my questions is if you ONLY consentrated & did L4 @225 for weeks to increase it, lets say you re-tested & it went to 3x20 at 235watts, would your L5 5min increase automatically even though you havent trained it? so would you be able to do L5 intervals at 282watts? (120% of the new 235FT)

So what Im trying to say is if you just trained to increase your 20min FT would the other zones go up automatically or do you have to train them individually also to bring them up as well or would your 20min FT go up & you L5 5min still remain at 270watts. Hope I explained this ok.

Thanks
Next Time Im in Vegas I would like to meet you, Im in SC

RapDaddyo

No, there is some spillover effect, especially from L4 to L5 and L6. There's a great chart in Hunter's and Andy's book that shows this graphically (p. 55). I like to think of L4-L6 as a hierarchy, with L4 on top, then L5, then L6. Adaptation benefits trickle down better than they trickle up. This is especially true for AWC efforts -- they mainly benefit AWC and nothing else.

Great. Bring your clothes and pedals and we'll find you a bike and go for a ride. If you come at the end of September, we have the Interbike show. You can see (and ride) the hottest new equipment on the market (both mountain bikes and road bikes). And, our weather begins to be great again by then (it's a bit hot now). I'm guessing Saris will have the new SL2.4 at this year's show.

Sillyoldtwit

If you remember I did the full 20 minutes last week with the above figures .
1x280 plus 3x270. 4x270 shouldn't be a problem


How many would you suggest? Don't worry I found the answer way back. 10x2minutes And does it matter if the VO2Max figure and the AWC figure are within 10 watts say of each other?

I know, but I've got to go back through some 30 odd pages to find the formula. Am going to do that in a minute.

That was a question I was going to ask you. Does one experience a sudden quantum leap in progress at times along of course with no discernible advances at other times?

Damn, the bikes in the gym only go up to 350Watts.

Do I understand from the above that it is possible to continue to improve your VO2Max efforts for some time? I thought one reached a peak fairly rapidly.
See your own quote in my earlier post today.

One final note. I could be wrong but 220 Watts felt very easy to me, only laziness and boredom prevented me from doing more. (and a binned Shuffle ) Having said that, this week I trained Sun, Mon, Tue, Thur and Fri - a first for me. I'm attempting to step up the volume as you advised.
Anyway, next week is 230Watts and based on this week I feel fairly confident. After all, I've been there before on less training.
P.S. My cycling buddy is down to 67Kilos now from 72K. I will require some power to match him on the hills now. TYSON

RapDaddyo

That's a good plan.

Not really. If you look at Andy's definition, AWC is simply defined as 121+%FT. There's a pretty fine line between VO2MAX and AWC.

Well, that's how it works for me. In my document (inching toward completion), that's one of my points and I use my own results last year to illustrate. I realized gains in big jumps and then went for several weeks with no clear increases in power. And, the first sign that I had FT=300W in my gunsights was when I began knocking off 5min intervals at 360+W. And, the day I really knew it was within my grasp was the day I climbed my 3.5 mile 6% hill at ~350W (~14min effort). I had to reach the point where 300W was about 15% less than what I could sustain for 10-15 min. To ride for an hour at a given power, you can't start struggling with maintaining the power until about the last 15-20 minutes. If you start struggling at 15 mins, you'll never make it.

Well, compared with aerobic efficiency, it peaks more quickly. But, in your case you have done relatively little work on VO2MAX so you probably have a long ways to go before you peak.

Don't expect to see any results from the increased volume immediately, but in a month I think you will begin to see results. Just be patient.

Sillyoldtwit

[QUOTE=RapDaddyo]I think that answers my question pretty well. Hopefully the same applies to me. However, going for several weeks without any discernible increase in power, must have been frustrating. It seems that patience is a virtue - everything comes to he who waits. (within reason )

This is really good news - roll on 350Watts!

.

Beginning to feel excited again and am having a job to work steadily through the power levels and not trying to rush things. I know doing it this way will eventually pay dividends, so shall bite the bullet and continue to increase the level of pain at an even pace.

RapDaddyo

You've got it. You may not reach your peak as quickly as you would like, but I guarantee you that when you find your peak this way it will be absolutely rock solid. When you go for a ride, you won't have any apprehension whatsoever about riding at a target power because you know you have it in the tank. Riding on the bubble won't be a new experience, it'll be just "Ho-hum, another day on the bubble. When's lunch?"

Sillyoldtwit

That's fine RD, as long as the bubble doesn't burst.

I've been doing some thinking about VO2Max and AWC. Taking a 20 minute training session, with the former you are pushing for a psychological longer duration, but then you have a longer recovery between intervals. With the latter you have less psychological pressure with the thought "I only have to continue for 2 minutes", but on the other hand you have the nagging thought of having to do 10 of the beggars.
I could be wrong, but I imagine some riders prefer VO2 Max intervals to AWC intervals because of the sheer number of AWC intervals one has to do to make up the 20 minutes.
Now, RD you said it's a fine line between the two, so the power levels coud be fairly close. Is it just conceivable that some people do their AWC intervals at a lower power than their VO2Max intervals. Or is this a definite no, no?

Does anyone out there have any thoughts on the above and how close are your power levlels to each other regarding the above? TYSON

RapDaddyo

I don't know why someone would want to do 2-3 min intervals at lower power than 5 min intervals. How large the intensity gap is between your VO2MAX and AWC intervals is a function of the shape of your MP/duration curve. I ride both at ~90% of my max power for the duration. So, for me the power difference is ~40W. The purpose of each is to produce the targeted adaptation. For your AWC efforts, you want to be at least somewhat over 120%FT. I do mine at ~125%FT. Frankly, I find them equally difficult because they're both keyed on the same parameter, 90% of my MP for that duration. 10% less than your max power for the duration is actually a pretty large variance. Think about it. Let's say your 5min MP is 280W. Taking off 10% is 28W. That's a lot. And, there's nothing magic about 5 mins. If you can't do 5mins at 120%FT, then try 4mins. Or 3mins. Yes, you have to do more of them, but each one is more tolerable.

Sillyoldtwit

I guess it was stupid question - I'll just shut up now until Friday.

P.S. Rain again as usual today, Sunday, so started 230Watts week in the gym.

kmavm

I've been riding "seriously" for about three years. My VO2Max power, as measured in a real, high-falutin' exercise physiology lab, mask and everything, was about 300 W in January. This agrees really well with my 5-minute maximum power, which has stayed in the range 300-310 almost all year. Yes, that 300w 5min max power comes from focused, rested, all-out tests, not cherry-picking workouts and races.

After I made my post about VO2Max being surprisingly trainable, I had my own VO2Max training surprise on Friday! I did my first structured set of L5 intervals in a long while, planning on 4x4minutes. I started them out aiming for something like 300W, but could immediately tell they were two easy. I ended up banging out the first three at around 320W. I got curious, and instead of doing a fourth 4-minute interval, I did my own little VO2Max field test: 333W. So, I'm living proof: I, an adult cyclist with a much higher "training age" than you made an 11% improvment in power at VO2Max in a few months.

Now if I could only figure out why it happened! Like I said, this was my first structured L5 work since, like, May. Admittedly, 5-minute power is an imperfect proxy for VO2Max. I know my AWC has improved, but it's still pretty lame-o in the grand scheme of things, so, with the pre-fatigue of the other three L5 intervals, and only 2:30 rest between them I think that 333W number is about right. The evidence is mounting that I was suffering from some mild form of the overtraining syndrome before my two weeks off in late June. I know "overtraining", like "bonking" and "peaking", gets thrown around way too loosely in cycling circles, but given the extreme performance improvement I'm seeing after a longish complete layoff, I'm willing to use "the O word."

RapDaddyo

I agree. In fact, depending on how well it was trained previously, I think the potential for improvement is even greater. For example, I raised my 5min MP by 35% in ~6 months. During this time, I raised my FTP by only ~18%. And, I don't think I have reached my upper limit on VO2MAX. I think Tyson is probably closer to my starting point for my 35% gain than he is to your starting point for your 11% gain. Same thing for AWC. I think 30-40% improvement in each is not outside the realm of possibility. Just think about it, Tyson. Let's say your max 5min power today is 280W. A 35% increase puts it at 378W. As I said a few posts back, when your 5min MP is 360W, I think you can start thinking about a serious assault on FTP=300W.

WarrenG

How much did your FTP improve during that period of time?