It's killing me but..........

Sillyoldtwit

Well that all sounds very nice RD, in fact it sounds like a bunch of laughs - I don't think! The old adage of "There's no gain without pain" somehow springs to mind; I wonder why?
Ah well, that's it, I now have all the weaponry I need. Need to do what, I'm not quite sure but I shall plug on.
Btw, on the 26/27 August is probably the biggest cycling event in Japan, the Shimano "Suzuka" Road with 2 days of some 50 different races. There are races for all ages from 7 year olds up. There are team races, 1 hour races, over 30, 40, 50, 60 individual races, open races aged 15 and up etc. And I think the last race of 58.2km is the International Elite race. Am still debating what to enter.

KMAVM wrote:



Well, that is comforting to know, I look forward to many miserable work-outs in the gym.

Anyway, so we don't bore the pants of people, I shall next report in after completion of the 250 Watts week. Unless of course there's some startling news.

Sillyoldtwit

Following a discussion with RapDaddyo, I am going to post my weekly figures to assist RD in creating my Critical Power Curve (to be explained in the upcoming "Document"). The method of creating your own CPC will be explained, and will help us to be more accurate in setting interval power targets and from this our FT.
I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, but watch this space.
So RD, starting with last Sunday the week has gone like this:

Sunday.

57 km - hard on about 10km of hills and 30-40 kmh on the level bits.

Tues: 2 minutes 15 secs @ 300 Watts was me done.
After 5 mins rest did 2 x 20 plus 1 x 10 all at 200W with a cadence of 90 -110.

Wed: Not normally a training day but did 1x30 @ 200Watts

Thurs: 2x5mins @ 260 plus 1 x 2mins @ 260
In other words my VO2max is completely shot.

After 5 mins @ 100W did 6x30secs @ 350 Watts These were full 30 secs - did not count the 20 secs it takes to reach 350W from 100W!

These were a hell of a lot easier than the VO2max intervals.
In fact I asked the gym manager if he could tweak the bike I normally ride up to 400Watts. After consulting manuals -no can do!
The answer I suppose is longer intervals at 350Watts.

To finish off did 1x20 @ 200Watts

Next week 210W and so on. TYSON

RapDaddyo

These are very revealing. Obviously, we overestimated the power target (at this time) for your VO2MAX efforts. Maybe it's 250W (it may not be obvious, but 10W is actually a huge difference in this part of your power/duration curve). You should be able to do 4x5 without dropping power, especially if you recover an equal duration (5m) between each effort. But, this is excellent information (even though you may be disappointed). Some of the most valuable information we obtain on training rides is obtained from efforts we cannot complete. In fact, I test myself every week during my routine rides by attempting to ride certain segments at a power target that I don't think I can sustain for the entire duration. Sometimes I put these efforts early in the ride when I'm fresh and sometimes I intentionally put them late in the ride when I'm fatigued.

These are basically AWC efforts, but probably not as beneficial as the 2min efforts. 350W isn't high enough to benefit your neuromuscular power and you may have to do your neuromuscular efforts on your road bike (10-20s at full power).

whoawhoa

Remember that your stationary bike isn't exactly a powermeter. Most likely, it uses wheel speed to estimate power, which means it's only accurate at a consistent speed. Or, in other words, your actual power during the 20 seconds of acceleration is probably more than 350 watts. So I would definitely count them as part of the interval.

Sillyoldtwit

I can't believe how far downhill I've gone.

I'm also getting a little confused with all this terminology, so please bear with me while I sort it out.

The 2 x 20/30s I understand.
4 x 5 mins = VO2 max session
6 x 30secs @ 350 has no value?
Should do 2mins @ ???Watts = what kind of session - is this AWC ???
And now we have neuromuscular power intervals @ full power for 10 -20 secs.
What will this help, besides sprinting for 10 to 20 secs?

WW wrote:
Thanks WW, so I actually did somewhere near 6 x 50 secs.
Actually thinking about it you're probably right. As you wind it up it, of course it gets more and more difficult and when you get near the 350W point it requires quite an effort, but once you're up to speed at 350W it becomes a little easier

RapDaddyo

Okay, let's try this. This is covered in the document and is in fact one of the main purposes of the document. The purpose of training is adaptations, physiological and/or psychological. The "Big 5" adaptations are endurance, aerobic efficiency (LT), VO2MAX, AWC and neuromuscular. Each adaptation is targeted with a power/duration combination. While there are an infinite number of power/duration combinations that will result in at least some adaptation, some are better (i.e., more efficient) than others. My view is that L1-L3 targets endurance. Anything >=91%FT and >=10mins in duration (L4) targets aerobic efficiency, with 2x20 being the common set but many variations are equally effective. I do L4 efforts at every duration from 10-90 minutes. BTW, if you think a 90min L4 effort (even at the bottom of the power range) is a piece of cake, think again. It's a bitch. Anything >=106%FT and >=3mins in duration (L5) targets VO2MAX. My preference is to use ~120%FT and ~5mins duration as a very efficient effort for targeting VO2MAX. But, you might have to ride at 120%FT in 3min durations. No problem, just do more of them. If you use an equal recovery duration, there's no difference in the time it takes to do 20mins of L5 efforts at 3mins per effort versus 5mins per effort. It's still 40mins total (20m on + 20m off). Anything >=121%FT and >=30sec in duration (L6) targets AWC. I prefer the longer end of the duration range (2-3mins) at ~90% of whatever my max power is for that duration (from my CP curve). This is usually ~150%FT. Full power efforts for ~15-20secs targets neuromuscular. I prefer to do 60-160rpm accelerations in one gear for these, beginning at ~12mph. My goal is to get to 160rpm absolutely as fast as possible. I try to accelerate cadence with each stroke with each leg. IOW, I'm not trying to push as hard as possible, I'm trying to increase cadence as much as possible. My only goal is to get to 160rpm. When I get to 160, I'm done. If I can get there in 5 secs, great (but I can't).

As to your comment about 6x30 @ 350W, it's not that it has no value. It's that it's too long for neuromuscular and is not very efficient for AWC. It's in sort of "no man's land." Anyway, I don't think you need to be targeting neuromuscular at this time. You'll get a bigger payoff by allocating your time to L4-L6.

Sillyoldtwit

Phew! Give me time to digest all that RD and I'll come back to you.

I broke it down a bit RD, hope you don't mind.

RapDaddyo

I'm glad you asked because I am frequently misquoted on this topic. I discount L1-L3 for the purpose of increasing power, either aerobic efficiency, VO2MAX, AWC or neuromuscular. However, I view L1-L3 as good for increasing endurance. I never have any specific goals for weekly L1-L3 time (i.e., all of my training objectives are stated in terms of total time in L4-L7), but inevitably it accounts for about half of my training time because I find it difficult to get my L4-L7 time > 50% of total time. Why? Warmups, cooldowns, recovery durations and group rides. When I analyze my ride time, I don't even differentiate between L1, L2 and L3. It just goes in a bucket called "other." Why? Because I don't care about the breakdown.

Sillyoldtwit

The post crash comeback continues.

I have gone back over all my pre-crash figures and I don't like what I see.
The training was erratic as hell. So I'm even more convinced that what I'm doing now is the right way to go - slow but dead sure.

This week went as follows:

Sunday (rain) so went to the gym.

1x30 @ 210Watts
1x20 @ 210Watts

Tues

1x30 @ 210Watts
1x20 @ 210watts

followed by a "feeler" session
1x1min @ 280W
2x1min @ 270W
1x1min @ 260W

Today Thurs (VO2max + AWC session)

1x5min @ 280Watts Felt I was pushing almost 100% so dropped it down.
3x5min @ 270Watts Learnt to relax and the last interval felt the easiest

1x2min @ 290Watts
2x2min @ 280Watts

Finished off with

1x20min @ 210Watts.

That last 20 minutes felt like I was out on my shopping bike heading for a picnic.

My advice to anyone following this thread is, consolidate your present power level before moving on to the next level.
To me that was a good solid week and the last days results augur well for next week's 220Watt intervals.

This week at 210Watts was so easy I'm sorely tempted to skip a level or 2.
However, the satisfaction of doing a good solid week has as I said convinced me to take it steady at 10 watts increase per week. In one short month I shall be back at 250/260 watts but hopefully rock steady unlike previously.
TYSON

RapDaddyo

Tyson, this is one of the most important posts of this entire thread. I will have more to say about this post, but have to head off on a ride right now. But, the insights you have gained post-crash as reflected in this post are absolutely awesome! More later.

RapDaddyo

So, here's my take on your week.
L4 2:20
L5 0:20
L6 0:10
Total L4-L6 2:50

This is good, but if you are serious about reaching 300W we need to talk about the dreaded "V" word - volume. Everybody's schedule is different due to work, family and life. But, if you want to reach your potential (whatever it may be) I think volume comes into the equation in addition to intensity. Just by way of contrast, here are my numbers this week through today.
L4 5:33
L5 0:32
L6 0:30
L7 0:03
Total L4-L7 6:38
I'll add another 90 mins at L4, 15 mins each to L5 and L6 and a couple of mins at L7 between now and Saturday for a total L4-L7 for the week of 8:40. Like you, I have begun to ramp up for a target event in the fall. Mine are in late September, so I may be a little further down the curve. I expect no immediate payoff from this volume. Rather, I am laying the foundation now for really solid numbers by September 1st. Now, I'm not suggesting that you match my volume. I'm just telling you what it is as a point of contrast. I thrive on volume and my body can handle it. When I log >6 hrs/wk at L4+, my numbers really begin to ramp up. My legs get so accustomed to the push required on the downstroke that I think they're really confused when I am not calling on them to push. You will realize some very nice progress with your current volume. But, if you're serious about punching through the FT=300W barrier, you may want to look at your schedule and see if you can increase your volume. And, if you do increase your volume I suggest that you increase it slowly and keep a very careful eye on how your body responds. Don't expect an immediate response. It's more like the 2-day rule: what you do today will show up in two days.
This is huge, fabulous. I'm thrilled that you learned to relax at 270W. This is the key thing one has to learn to increase sustainable power. When I am riding at L4 and above, my entire concentration goes into total relaxation of every muscle in my body other than from my hips down. I consciously relax my neck, back, arms and fingers. I don't want any unnecessary efforts to detract from my body supplying oxygen and energy to my quadriceps.

I agree 100%. The gains will come by putting in the hours at the right power target as a function of where you are right now, not where you want to be or where you were 3 months ago when you were romping up the hills at XXX watts. You finish the week feeling good, anxious for next week and higher targets. Pushing too much power not only doesn't do you much good but psychologically it's devastating. You finish the week feeling defeated because you aren't where you want to be. Bad stuff.

Keep up the good work. Your post is solid gold.

Sillyoldtwit

Looking at your totals which are very impressive, it seems that I need to inject some more L4 work. However, I think there is a fine line between achieving the right amount of volume (quantity) and overdoing it at the expense of quality.

To me it is a fine balancing act, knowing just how much work (volume) to put in without affecting the next training session adversely. Strangely enough, it wasn't until after yesterday's session in the gym that I felt that I could increase the volume. Bear in mind that all last week, my training was in the gym with no wind blowing through my hair, ever changing scenery, whirr of the tires and dare I add, no missing of a few strokes (coasting) here and there.

Still, enough of the excuses, hopefully you will see a significant increase in volume next week L4-wise and perhaps even a narrowing of the gap between us with L5 and L6 work - volume that is, not higher Wattage.

RapDaddyo

Actually, I don't think you need to sacrifice quality at all. I don't. My honest belief is that many people have a very low ratio of "quality" time to total time in the saddle. I consider quality time to be time at L4 and above. My ratio of L4-L7 time to total time is now ~50%. But, I spend ~16 hours/week on my bike and that is a commitment many are not prepared to make. But, even if I rode only 8-10 hrs/wk on the bike, my L4-L7 time would still be 4-5 hrs/wk. You will realize a faster rate of progress if you increase your volume to, say, 3.5-4 hours at L4-L6. But, again, don't rush it and back off immediately if you feel any adverse effects.

Sillyoldtwit

Knowing when you are sacrificing quality is the tricky bit. The only way I can think of judging it is, when you have to lower the cadence to a point where it becomes a drag on the knees and you start wishing the session was over.
That is, a cadence somewhat lower than 90.

It seems to me that when you are spinning along at 90 plus, as long as your heart and lungs can handle it, that's the 'comfortable zone' . Maybe I'm wrong. TYSON