It's killing me but..........

Sillyoldtwit

Me bad! You're right, you didn't predict my 300 max duration was 1 min.
I read your post twice and still misinterpreted it. As a professional proofreader there's no excuse - my apologies.

As we have one reader in Curlew, I suppose we have to continue this thread yet awhile. Has he paid up his subscription btw?

Curlew wrote:


LOL Curlew; you make it sound like a thrilling serialized novel. I wish I could share your enthusiasm for breaking the 300 watt barrier. The way I feel at the mo, it seems a long way off despite RD's assumption that he thinks I feel I am there already. Right at this very instant, it seems to have receded into the distance somewhat. This morning just to get the feel off what it's like, I did 2x90secs @ 300w followed by 1x60 secs @ 350 watts. If you haven't already tried them, I can tell you they are bloody hard. Anyway we shall see.

RD wrote:


Why on earth would you want me to do that?!?! I know what a drag it is even with the sexiest girl in the gym on the next bike to me. I would go so far as to say the last 10-15 minutes are sheer purgatory.
And what's more I still have my crash injuries, and it looks like it will be 2 or 3 months before they heal.

Incidentally RD, my wife is all for visiting LV. I think we will have to take one of those famous Japanese package tours - where's my camera?
However, I'm not ready to ride with you yet, if I ever will be.

RapDaddyo

Actually, I think you should do a "clear all memory" operation and forget about your earlier numbers. You need to recalibrate your fitness and derive the same satisfaction from improvements that you had initially. When I detrain for any reason, I don't hesitate to do a 1 hr ride and recalibrate my FT. From that point forward, that is my base and I get as excited about every bump as I did the first time.

One, it's a solid 60 mins at L4. Two, it's great mental discipline. Three, it validates the relationship between your 20 min power and your FT. I don't have the data to back up my theory, but I think many people are overestimating their FT by basing it on their 20min power. FYI, I divide my 20min power by 1.10 to estimate my FT. I have learned over time that with comparable motivation that is the relationship (for me). I think the ratio of 20min to 60min power will increase over time as I become more fit at longer durations, but that is where I am currently. The consequence of an overestimation is that we ride our L4 efforts at higher power than necessary and we end up spending too much time at recovery pace, decreasing the quality ride time. I believe it's counterproductive to overestimate FT. May as well go out there and find out.

Cool. You'll be ready. Hey, I'm working on this document to get you to 300W. Once you get there, you need to find some new hills to flatten.

Sillyoldtwit

Fine, but selecting a figure is difficult. It's certainly not 250W or even 240Watts at the mo. Perhaps therein lies the answer - 230Watts. Geez, before long I'll be back at the good old days of 130Watts. Ah, my halcyon days!

RD wrote:

Forget the document, that won't get me to 300Watts. Send me some new legs, heart and lungs. TYSON

RapDaddyo

That's only because you don't have the document yet. It will give you a surefire way to find your FT with one ride (and without a 60min effort). Granted, it will require three efforts to max duration, but cumulatively less than an hour of riding (with recoveries). More importantly, it will give you max power/duration values for any duration you want.

Sillyoldtwit

OK, OK I give up - give me, give me, give me the document, I've got mountains to climb!

RapDaddyo

Well, you're in luck. It just so happens that I finished the largest part (~128K characters) of the major document I have been working on. I have two smaller parts to write and then I can finish the training document. In the meantime, you'll just have to wing it. I'm sure you'll manage just fine.

BTW, too bad you don't have a PM, because one piece I am finishing today is a ride file parser that buckets training time by level based on both power and duration. Nothing else does that. But, then, you don't have a PM. Oh, well.

Sillyoldtwit

Actually, at the moment I haven't a clue what I'm doing or should be doing.
The weather forecast has changed for tomorrow, so shall be out on the road at 4.30am. That's no prob.
You mentioned that you want me to see how long I can sustain 300Watts, so my plan is to do that on Tuesday in the gym followed by .....?
Then Thursday in the gym ......? I'm confused

Can't I just go back to doing 2x20 @ 140? Those were happy days!

RapDaddyo

I'd go back to what you were doing before you started to taper for the century, just scaled back to reflect your detrained FT. I think if you assume your current FT is ~220W, you will quickly find out if that is too low because the durations will just be too easy. What were you doing, something like 2x/week of 2x20s and 1x/week of L5s and 1x20, plus a long Sunday ride?

RapDaddyo

I know you said this in jest, but I actually like the idea of dropping way back after detraining and doing a gradual buildup. It's a good feeling to finish a set feeling like you could up the wattage quite a bit. Trying to ride at or near your pre-detraining levels is frustrating and discouraging. You got there gradually and you need to get back there gradually.

Sillyoldtwit

Right, now I'm getting angry (not with you RD) So the program goes like this.

From next week.

WK 1 2x20 @ 200W
Wk 2 2x20 @ 210W
Wk 3 2x20 @ 220W
Wk 4 2x20 @ 230W
Wk 5 2x20 @ 240W
Wk 6 2x20 @ 250W
Wk 7 2x20 @ 260W
Wk 8 2x20 @ 270W
Wk 9 2x20 @ 280W
Wk 10 2x20 @ 290W
Wk 11 The first week in September 2x20 @ 300W or my name is not Richard Gere!

No matter how good I feel I'm going to adhere to the above. Of course I shall also do my VO2max sessions and the AWC sessions when you say.

Ready for showing my back wheel to guys who did that to me in the 150Km around Lake Biwa ride last October when my FTP was around 120Watts and I weighed 85 plus Kilos. This year in October is going to be a whole new ball game. Especially as I also have go faster pedals,tyres and shoes - red ones!

P.S. The above does not precude me from doing 3x20 on a good day. TYSON

RapDaddyo

Well, I like this part and that's all that matters for now. So, why do I like it? Is it because I think you have detrained 20% in the 3 weeks since your century? No. It is because I think you will finish your workouts feeling good and hungry for the next workout. You may not have to do this workout more than once. If your RPE and HR are well below where they were before the century, then bump it up 10W for the next session. I think you will just have to see how your body responds to getting more fit again. As for the rest of it, I'll hold off on that until you read my pending document. Then we can talk about your program going forward, including the big "V" word, Volume. If you're serious about getting to 300W (and I take it at face value that you are), then we have to address the volume issue in addition to the mix issue.

Sillyoldtwit

By volume I assume you mean TSS points. If so, we are on the same wavelength. The idea behind me building back up slowly was to increase the TSS points per week i.e. consolidating each level. In the end I think I shall benefit from doing this. The aim is, initially anyway, to do as many weeks at
3x20 @ x power as possible. Have to fly now - catch you later.

RapDaddyo

By volume, I mean total minutes per week of bona fide L4-L6 efforts. Bona fide means they meet both a power and a duration requirement. I get into that in the document. TSS is best for measuring total training stress, but not for measuring whether you are increasing your sustainable power. IOW, there are an infinite number of ways to acquire TSS points, not all of which will result in increased sustainable power. This issue is the heart of training and will be discussed in detail in the document.

RapDaddyo

Tyson, I think you should keep a log of your training ride time. I'm not talking about an extensive log. This is the info I would keep, by week and by level (L4-L6):
Mins AP
The levels are:
L4 91-105%FT (min. duration 10min)
L5 106-120%FT (min. duration 3min)
L6 121+%FT (min. duration 30sec)
You'll have to estimate how much of your Sunday rides fall into these categories. Feel free to record other details such as whether you did 3x20s or 2x30s, but I am interested in the above stats. Actually, I think you should attempt to reconstruct your time since January on this basis. Most of it can be reconstructed from your posts here.