It's killing me but..........

Sillyoldtwit

Thanks for the pics.

A long climb but steady, I would probably tackle that one on my "no gears" shopping bike with my 7 year old daughter on the back.

Geez you guys have got it easy over there!

Anyone else got any pics of their favourite climb?

RapDaddyo

Those are the best rides for training. Just enough grade and/or wind to provide a constant resistance. Preferably no stoplights or crossing intersections. You can do L4s, L5s or L6s to your heart's content. Steeper climbs are typically too short for certain intervals. But then, I haven't tried it on a shopping bike with a 7 year-old on back.

Sillyoldtwit

You might laugh but I swear this is true. In my running days I used to run up a 200 metre sandhill with my baby son (now 28) in a sling on my back. Six reps and I was finished.

Sillyoldtwit

I don't know if anyone is interested in Japan, but if you click on this link from an earlier post http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~yamaken...ku/20060129.htm then scroll to the bottom and click on "Ken". Under the picture click on the dark geen link and then click on any of the list that comes up and you will see hundreds of Japanese scenes. Also if instead of the above, if mountains are your bag, click on 100etc. and a list of 100 Japanese mountains comes up. They don't all open up.

netscriber

OK Rd, now tell us what are these 43 min or 60 min L4 intervals? And why 60 mins and not 2x30mins? I am guessing these are LT training intervals just by the sound of them.
So you do 1x60 or 43?

curlew

Yeah, Curlew posts a picture of the Indiana "climb." Tyson and RD view the picture then politely ask if I could give them a little help spotting the start and the end of the climb in the picture. Smiles all around.

Tyson, my work is taking me to a midwestern college campus for 8 days. I initially thought this was going to be a disaster for my riding. There are some cool races ahead in July that I want to be ready for. However, the trip may not turn out to be the problem that I thought it would be. I will be able to use the rec center and they have several LeMond RevMaster Indoor Cycling Bikes. If I hadn't seen the great progress you have made in the gym, I would have just reverted back to my running for this eight day period. Instead I will be spinning furiously away hopefully in the midst of the pleasant distractions that frequently have come your way. I should be able to send a watt report.



Netscriber, will your back be ready to ride by the end of the month?

I'm betting that RD talks about these longer intervals helping him accumulate more total weekly time spent at L4. I try to do 2X30 instead of 2X20 or 3X20 because it is psychologically easier for me to accumulate more weekly time at L4 when I do it in bigger chunks.

But RD has also been orienting his intervals around a riding at a target critical power then trying to hold that power for as long a duration as possible. He may have ended the interval at 43 minutes because that was the maximum duration that he could hold his target power. I dunno. I haven't fully assimilated his reasoning on all of this so I appreciate your efforts to draw more explanation out and his efforts to make all of this clear.

RapDaddyo

Hi NS, I have been searching for a route where I can do MP performance tests up to 60 mins. The perfect route would be a slight but constant upgrade and a headwind for ~20 miles, with no crossing intersections or stoplights. And, it turns out the nearly perfect route was just 1.7 miles from my front door. I also use this route when I am very limited in time (e.g., ~1 hr). The route is really two parts. The first part is 11 miles long with a steady 1.6% upgrade and almost always directly into a headwind of at least 10mph, sometimes up to 25mph. The second part is a .6% downgrade, again almost always into a headwind. There is only one crossing intersection with a stoplight, at 4 miles, with a maximum stop of 2 mins. When I ride the first part as an L4 interval, it is 40-45 mins, depending on wind. The return is only ~15 mins at ~250W, so I ride over at ~175W to warm up, ride it as one continuous L4 interval and cruise back. I'm done in a little over an hour and have at least 40 minutes of L4 time. If I have more time, I ride parts 1 and 2 as a 60 min L4 interval. The second part is a little more difficult to maintain a constant power, but I usually have a difference of ~2W between NP and AP for the first part. The benefit of these is that they give me very solid MP data points and they are a very efficient use of training time. As you may know, I think many of us make inefficient use of our available training time (i.e., the percentage of quality L4-L7 time is a relatively small percentage of total ride time).

netscriber

Hi Curlew. Thanks for asking. I am able to walk straight now. And can sit..etc. However if I sit for more than an hour my back starts hurting. So I am mostly using a lumbar support belt while sitting for long periods. But I am getting there. Hopefully by next week I will be able to ride the recumbent trainer we bought for my wife. If I dont feel right I will back off till I feel perfect. I have learned the hard way in the past not to push recovery on an injury.



Thanks for the explanation RD. So its merely efficient use of time and terrain/situation. Got it. Now, I suppose you do these on the extreme low end of L4?
Just before I injured my back this time, I had started doing 4x20's on the pacific coast highway here. It is ~20mins with no wind and I do laps on the 20min stretch. So if there is a headwind it takes me 30-35mins to go up and 15mins to come back and vice versa. If I had enough power there are lots of stretches with gradual grade here, but I am not there yet(I think).


Tyson,
So what are your current numbers?

RapDaddyo

Actually, the unique value of the route is performance testing (although some wise guru says something like training and testing are one and the same -- I'd quote it exactly but I think it's trademarked). When I want a really solid MP for any duration, I like a very small variance between NP and AP. This requires either a trainer ride or a very particular type of outdoor route. The perfect outdoor route is a slight upgrade into a headwind, so you get a very consistent resistance to push against. The efficiency part comes into play when I do a 40-60 min L4 interval without a 5 min recovery segment. The 5 min recovery segment is not mandatory and just adds to the total duration of the ride. One can do at least 60 mins at the low end of L4 without a recovery segment. It's also good psychologically to have to hold good form for 40-60 mins with no rest. The common tendency is to start getting a little ragged after 20-30 mins. The stroke is more choppy, cadence varies more, breathing gets ragged and you don't hold as straight of a line. If you do 40-60 min intervals regularly, these things sort themselves out and you begin to ride the last 20 mins as smoothly as you rode the first 20 mins.

4x20s are good. You wouldn't actually get any adaptation benefit from doing 2x40s (IMO), so 4x20 is a good way to get a solid 80 mins of L4 work. If you do that a few times a week, your FT will eventually begin to reflect the quality work, even if you do the L4s at the very low end of the range.

RapDaddyo

Actually, I use this route for two different reasons, on different days. I use it when I need to be at my desk early. From the time I leave my front door until I return, I can get in ~45 mins at L4, 15 mins at L3 and a total ride time of 70 mins. So, it's just a very efficient use of 70 mins on the bike (64% efficiency ratio). If I have more time, I can also repeat, for a total of 90 mins at L4 + 30 mins at L3 out of a total of 130 mins and an efficiency ratio of 69% (only one warmup/cooldown). I also use it when I want a rock-solid MP for any duration up to 60 mins. For reasons that I am not prepared to fully discuss now, I make use of my CP curve for detailed and precise ride planning, including race planning. So, I want to be as accurate as possible with the parameters of my CP curve.

Lonnie Utah

Let's try this again.

Ok, you guys inspired me. I went out yesterday and did a 50 miler, with over 4000' of climbing. I rode part of stage 6 of the Tour of Utah. I didn't intend to ride that far ("I'll be back in an hour, honey") I set out with only a single bottle and 2 gels. I had to stop refill my bottle, buy a gatorade and a pack of skittles on my way home.

http://www.tourofutah.com/stagesix.html

I started at about mile 100 on the tour of utah map and working "backwards" over "flat" roads (see the post below) I made my way up to the top of the "Alpine Loop". The mouth of the canyon is hot and dry, but the top was a high alpine environment with Aspens and wildflowers riding over a 1 lane road with turnouts. It reminded me of some of the roads in the big tours. I doubled back at the top and went up and over Suncrest and home.

Any these aren't mine, but here are a few shots of the canyon.
http://www.wasted-disk-space.com/20.../0819/index.htm



Here's the profile for those that are interested.
http://www.flux.utah.edu/~mike/climbs/html/amfork.html

See the "aspen grove" photos
http://www.wasted-disk-space.com/20...8/0819/loop.htm



Today was a MTB ride with another 1200-1500' of climbing, and felt pretty good. It was more short anerobic bursts type ride.

Anyway I think I have a new favorite ride. Next time I'll go up and over suncrest on the outbound leg as well.

L

__________________
Cheap, Strong and Light.
Pick any Two.

Sillyoldtwit

Nice pics there LU - must visit the USA one day. Daren't go before I can give RD a run for his money.

Possible progress has been curtailed at the mo. Am still swathed in surgical dressings which are changed by deightful nurses everyday. On Monday caught my first cold in years. Unfortunately had a sore throat with it, so intend to come back slowly. The first full blast session will be next Thursday I hope. I'm now beginning to wonder how much my training will be set back by.

Having lots of free time has given me more time to read both present and past posts, and what has amazed me, is just how many riders, (and I assume many of them are young), have an FT of around 250Watts. I'm not sure by how much more I can increase my FTP, but assuming I can (I feel in my heart I'm just beginning) I would like to say "thanks Dad you old beggar, you hated my first 2 records (Elvis' Houndog and Heartbreak Hotel) but at least you passed on some good genes."

He actually got to like Elvis later on. I remember as if it were yesterday him saying, "what the hell is that noise - Elvis who? He won't last 3 months!"

P.S. For me Elvis is now passe. When it comes to pop music I'm a Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds fan.

RapDaddyo

I just love these type of rides. Winding roads, steady grades and beautiful sights left and right. Just fantastic. Thanks for the pics. I'm actually putting together a collection of such rides for my club, that I plan to call "Great Rides." The concept is a set of day trips: early AM drive from LV to the ride, 3-4 hour ride, then drive back in time for dinner.

RapDaddyo

Actually, 250W encompasses those who train fairly seriously. I would venture that most people fall in the 150-250 range. By the time you are riding at >250W, you are definitely in the minority of riders. And, you are correct to give the major credit to your parents. As to how much you can improve, the only component that may be nearing your genetic maximum is your VO2MAX. With continued L4 intervals, your FT should continue to increase (albeit at a slower rate) for years to come. And, you haven't even touched your AWC. So, you ain't there yet. And, when you come to the states, stop off at LV. I have this nice little 5K' climb (Mt. Charleston) we can go ride. The last guy to the top buys dinner. Heck, you're so skinny I should get a head start.