It's killing me but..........

RapDaddyo

This is one of smartest workouts you have ridden. Very wise to realize you weren't fully recovered from that tough ride a couple of days ago and cut the high-intensity work short. Very, very wise.

I think you'll see a big difference when you're reasonably fresh. I think the hills on Sunday will seem flatter than ever. BTW, I'm guessing 250W may be the right number anyway.

Ugh! Doesn't a fresh fruit smoothie sound good?

Sillyoldtwit

What's a smoothie? Never seen one in England and we don't have them in Japan. Please send me one.

250W -- No! No! 260W next week.

RapDaddyo

I make them in a blender with frozen chunks of fresh fruit, some powdered whey protein, ice and fruit juices. Sort of a healthy milk shake.

Sure, go for it. You'll know by how the last one feels. If you can finish it at full power and not feel wasted, then the power is right.

Sillyoldtwit

What, after one VO2MAX session?
Tongue in cheek I guess!

RapDaddyo

No, from what appears to be ~225W of sustainable power and 250W of climbing power.

Sillyoldtwit

RD, you're turning me into a complete and utter power junkie. The figures you mentioned above, I was only dreaming about 3 months or so ago and here we are. The mind boggles when contemplating what may be possible. Will I look back on those figures and think "Is that all I could do then?"

I know you don't like setting targets which you may not be able to achieve, but having smashed the 200W barrier, I have to now look at the 300W barrier. I visualize it everyday and think nothing is going to stop me. At my age I should wish time passed a little slower, however, I can't wait for the next training session soon after finishing the last one.

I'm on such a high at the mo, am thinking of extending my course again this Sunday to take in another 5km of climbing.

RapDaddyo

My philosophy about setting targets goes beyond cycling. It has to do with recognizing and celebrating all progress, regardless of how small. If you look back at your posts in this thread, you were (and should have been) thrilled with each and every bump in your 20min L4 power. The performance gains alone motivated you to continue with your program and it was your consistency of effort that was really responsible for your progress. The gains weren't measured against an expectation, they were measured against nothing. They were just gains, to be enjoyed for what they were -- improvements. You're actually in the right country to appreciate this philosophy. The Japanese didn't get to their current market position in automobiles with one massive push. They just improved their products a little bit each year.

Cool.

netscriber

I am going to try and think this way. MY biggest problem has always been big goals, overtraining and taking big breaks.

Hey Tyson, congrats...keep it up, big guy.

Sillyoldtwit

Netsciber Wrote:

Best of luck with your training in future NS. You'll get there if you take one step at a time.
And thanks for the congrats, but it's really no big deal, just another rung on the ladder.

RD, have been doing some thinking today. At the moment I feel 3 consecutive days (Tues/Wed/Thur) is a little too tough for me as yet. Especially with 2 of the days at FT 120% plus. The problem is, if I have Wed as a rest day, I'm only training 3 days a week. 2xHI plus a long Sunday ride.

My thoughts run along the lines of:

Mon - VO2Max + 1x20 @ 80/90%FT

Tues - Off

Wed - 2x20 @ 90% FT

Sun - 100km plus with lots of climbs.

Alternatively, as above + 1 hour easy ride in the gym on Saturday at say,

180W.

I don't know how the latter will affect Sunday's ride.

I would appreciate your opinion here. Cheers!

Tyson

PS I haven't thanked you lately for all your help. You obviously don't have to take the time out to help a silly old twit, but you do. Very much appreciated.

Reminds me of a song:

You're my soul and my inspiration,
without you RD - what would I be? or words to that effect.

RapDaddyo

I like the Sun ride, although I'll just have to guess what the intensities are. As to your other days, your plan is 80mins at L4+ (assuming you bump the intensity to >=91%FT). I'd rather see you get at least 120mins at L4+, regardless of how you get it. You may be overestimating the stress of the VO2MAX efforts. Let me introduce you to a new tool you can use to compare the training stress of different rides, regardless of the composition of the rides. The tool is Training Stress Score(TM), developed by Andy Coggan. [You know, it's sort of interesting that, apart from the PM itself, every tool I use to plan and manage my training was invented by Andy (himself or in collaboration with Hunter Allen).] Anyway, TSS is defined and explained here (page 10) http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/P...ningChapter.pdf. I have a small application that computes AP, NP, IF and TSS for a ride script. Send me a PM with an email address and I'll send it to you. I built the app to create CSV files to import non-PM rides into CP, but you can use it to calculate the above stats for any ride script. I ran the numbers for a couple of rides for you, to illustrate how to use the numbers. The rides were: (1) a 2x20 @ 210W with 5min before and between the 20min intervals @ 100W, and (2) 4x5 @ 260W with 5min at 100W before and between each interval + 10mins @ 100W after the last 260W interval + 1x20 @ 210W. Here are the numbers for these rides:
AP NP IF TSS
188 199 .88 65
177 208 .92 99
These rides illustrate the value of these stats pretty well. Looking at AP, the 2nd ride appears to be the easier ride. But, NP is the better measure of the overall intensity of the ride and clearly ride #2 is the harder ride. I don't think an NP of 208 is outside your range now, but you will know you have put in some work. The TSS measure takes into account both intensity and duration, so you can see that by this measure the 2nd ride is ~50% greater than the 1st ride. And, I think this is about right. So, 2x ride #2 is about equivalent to 3x ride #1. You'll have to find (by trial and error) your own body's tolerance for total daily and weekly training stress. I use ~150 TSS points per day as my transition point for a day off the next day and I try to keep my weekly total under 1000 points. I'm not sure you can't handle 300 TSS points per week plus your Sunday ride, but you'll have to expreriment yourself to find your tolerance for stress.

My pleasure. I think there are a few others following this thread and so there's probably a leverage effect. When I first started riding, I had the unbelievably good fortune to train every day with a phenomenal cyclist (state champ, member of US Olympic and World Championship road teams). He taught me most of what I know and more recently I have devoured the work of Andy Coggan, Ric Stern and others. So, I feel I have an obligation to do what others have done for me -- share. People like you who ask good questions, take advice seriously and have a good work ethic make it worthwhile. Keep up the good work.

netscriber

Can I please have it too?

Tyson, I was kinda thinking of racing you by numbers since I am following almost the same routine of 2x20's .

RapDaddyo

Sure, it's on its way.

Sillyoldtwit

I think I mentioned once before RD, when it comes to figures and formulas I'm totally useless. As soon as someone tries to explain something using maths, my firewall springs into action - the visor comes down and that is that.
I read your post three times and skimmed through information in on page 10 etc. of the link you gave me. Sorry RD but it just leaves me cold. I'm a firm believer in "keep it simple stupid". I follow what you suggest I do in the gym, but I can't handle working out the week's TSS etc. I prefer to fly by the seat of my pants and feel instinctively what's good and what's bad for me.
This applys even more so when I'm out on the road. I feel intuitively how much power I should be generating and for that matter, am capable of generating.
If I disappoint you, well that's life! Maybe as time goes by I will slowly incorporate more technical details into my riding, but I'm definitely not ready yet.

In a lighter vain; set off at just after 4.30am this morning and headed for the mountains. On the first real hill - the 15% one you told me to avoid, I went up there like I've never climbed it before. Was hardly breathing at the top!
Around 3 hours I suddenly felt one of those inexplicable surges of energy. Which was fortunate because I was 3 minutes away from where I had to turn off if I wanted to increase my distance again. So added another 8 km to last Sunday's ride.
Again I know it doesn't sound much, but 5km of that was climbing and it included a short (400m) pig of hill (13-17%) I admit to standing up on the 17% bit.

Anyway, finished the 93km ride strongly and at the same average speed give or take as last Sunday.
Thanks to you RD it's slowly but surely coming. Another month of VSO2Max
training plus the 1 x 20 intervals and the mind boggles as to what's around the corner.
I hope to build up to the June event distance (100 miles) by the last Sunday of May. Do you think that's wise?

And now for the gentleman who in another thread recommended 1 litre of liquid per 15 kilometers. On the ride above I drank only 300 milliliters and
didn't need anymore. Had one banana before setting off and 2 bananas plus 1 powerbar during the ride. Actually took 2 powerbars but didn't want the 2nd one.

NS wrote:

I'm at a distinct disadvantage in this race as you don't reveal any figures.

And how much younger than me are you NS?

netscriber

Oh come one. I know we cant do this without numbers. I am currently struggling with my equipment situation. I do not have a powermeter. My kurt Kienetic with a power computer should arrive tomorrow. The last time I checked on a performance fluid trainer with an axiom computer my FT was around 130 and I weigh 47kgs and am 36yrs old.
The reason I am curious of comparative progress is that currently I am on the same regimen that you are. 2x20's for life. I know there are a dozen more variables that are not accounted for but I thought it would be fun too.