Cadence question

tjodit

Let me make sure I have this straight...you said you down shift ...so that means putting the bike in a harder gear, right? The lower the gear the harder it is to pedal. Sorry, but I don't want to hurt a knee ...so I want to be sure I understand you correctly.

Eden

eek no! I shift to an easier gear. Forgive me if my terminology is confusing.

Equus123

here is the workout i do for isolated leg drills. there are 2 different sets. if you were to break up my workout into 8 sections, these would be sections 3 & 7. ...basically don't do them first and don't do them last.

here's what i do for them:

Set 1 (i.e. section 3) - 75-80rpms
**spin about :10 with both legs before switching sides**
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
1:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg

Set 2 (i.e. section 7) - 75-80rpms
**spin about :10 with both legs before switching sides**
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Left leg
2:00 39x18 Isolated Leg Drill - Right leg


translated to 1 or 2 minutes of spinning (with a 10 second transition period spinning both legs) with just one leg clicked in keeping 75-80rpms and riding the small (for 2 front chain rings) or middle (for 3 front chain rings) ring in the front and approx the left of middle section of the cog in the back. if you can't keep that gear, switch up (easier). the important thing is to keep the cadence. its going to be hard though. ...specially if you're new to this type of drill. it will make a huge difference though. trust me.

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tjodit

Cool! Something to do on the bike besides just ride. Since these are your sections 3 and 7 what do you suggest I do before doing these? Just ride for 30 minutes or so? Would you do any interval work on the same day that you do isolated leg drills? This was a very good explanation...I still have trouble understanding some of the lingo but this was very clear. Thank you very much!

Equus123

alright. here's the deal. i'll share the workout that i did last sunday. please do not replicate this anywhere. just use it as an example of a workout that someone can do that encorporates endurance, leg speed, and muscular strength. i'm on a cycling team and my coach would not appreciate his work going elsewhere. (i'm omitting some of the detail) thank you...

5:00 warmup
5:00 seated hill build up (1:00 on gear A, B, C, D, E)
3:00 easy spin
5:00 standing hill build up (same gear succession as first set)
3:00 easy spin
1:30 spin ups (:30 @ 90-100-110 rpms)
3:00 easy spin
1:30 spin ups (:30 @ 90-100-110 rpms)
3:00 easy spin
1:30 spin ups (:30 @ 90-100-110 rpms)
3:00 easy spin
1:30 spin ups (:30 @ 90-100-110 rpms)
3:00 easy spin
1:30 spin ups (:30 @ 90-100-110 rpms)
3:00 easy spin
2:00 seated big gear climb (gear A)
2:00 standing little gear climb (gear B)
2:00 seated big gear climb (gear A)
2:00 standing little gear climb (gear B)
2:00 seated big gear climb (gear A)
2:00 standing little gear climb (gear B)
3:00 easy spin
8:00 isolated leg (2:00 each leg, same gear throughout)
3:00 easy spin
6:00 seated steady climb (2:00 on gear A, B, C)
3:00 easy spin
6:00 standing steady climb (same succession as above)
3:00 easy spin
4:00 isolated leg (2:00 each leg, same gear throughout)
3:00 easy spin
5:30 spin ups (:45 @ 90 then :15 @ 100-110-120)
cool down

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tjodit

Equus: Thanks, rest assured I will only use this for my own personal use. Only one problem...I don't understand it. Sorry to be such a newbie dunce but can you explain the seated hill build up, seated big gear climb and standing little gear climb and what gear A,B,C,D,and E might be for a beginner with 3 chainrings? Also, is this done on a trainer (which I don't have) or can it be done on my bike? Are the hill buildups actually done on a hill or just simulated on flats? Sorry if I sound really ignorant.

Equus123

no, its cool. no need for apologies. thats what these forums are for yes, these are all done on a trainer and would be virtually impossible to do this exact workout on the road as well as on a spinning bike (no cadence). the names of the intervals are just titles of what you're doing/simulating on the trainer. seated big gear climb = big chainring in the front, small ones in the back - very hard - done seated to work on leg and hip strength. standing little gear climb = middle front chainring (if you have 3) and middle to small cogs in the back, usually done at a higher cadence with your butt out of the saddle. i left the actual gears out for consideration of my coach. i don't think it would be relavent anyway because this is all trainer work.

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tjodit

Thanks for the more in-depth info. I don't have an indoor trainer and I don't have cadence on my computer. I just have to count it for 15 seconds. Would you say that a computer with cadence would be worthwhile for me to get? My computer is fine but I nearly severed the wire to my computer somehow. I taped the ends together with electrical tape but sometimes I have trouble getting it to work. Any recommendations on a computer with cadence?

Equus123

eek! i can't even imagine riding without my computer. i have the cateye astrale 8. http://www.cateye.com/en/products/v...Id=6&subCatId=0

its a low-line product but i don't need anything fancy. i use it for elapsed time, cadence, distance, and speed (max, avg). it shuts off after an hour or so to conserve battery power. the time stops when the bike stops...which i love because of all the stupid lights i have to go through to get to the good roads. i like it.

personally, i believe cadence is very important. especially when in conjunction with an indoor trainer. its almost impossible to do a workout without that knowledge or piece of the pie. yes, its possible, but if there is the need to *train* then cadence is a necessity. if cycling is purely recreational, then screw it! do whatever the hell you want!

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pinkey

What's a good stationary trainer that you would recommend? ("cyclops fluid") ?? I'm new to the cycling world.

ric_stern/RST

Interesting thread...

Something that hasn't been mentioned, and to clarify some points from a physiological and biomechanical standpoint

1) If you're "bouncing" in the saddle (and i don't know what *you* mean by bouncing) it could very be that your saddle height is too *low*. If however, you mean your hips are rocking up and down then this would likely mean your saddle is too high (i.e., your pelvis tilts to accomodate the oversized seat height). Bouncing usually means too low a saddle.

2) There are many ways to set seat height and bike position, which is a multifaceted issue depending on bone lengths, flexibility, bike kit (e.g., different size cranks), and breast size (e.g., you don't want your knees smacking you in the chest at the top of every pedal rev), as well as many other issues. However, a good rule of thumb for setting saddle height is 100% of greater trochanter height with your legs straight and apart at the same width as when cycling. Put the pedals in *line* with the seat tube (not at 6 o'clock) and set seat height (to the point where you sit on the saddle) from the top surface of the lower pedal to the seat point as 100% of greater trochanter height. This is a reasonable starting point for most people (male and female). Other options are to check with a bike shop who knows what they're doing or a good cycling coach etc

3) Often when in a group, you need to accelerate and decelerate to match other riders due to changing dynamics within a group. As you become more experienced at riding you will sense when the group's velocity is changing and be better able to match these changes. Eden mentions soft pedalling - :-).

4) It may not be necessary to increase cadence. Physiologically speaking, thermodynamic efficiency is highest at a lower rather than higher cadence, however this cadence will increase with increasing power (i.e., at low power most efficient cadence will be X revs/min, and at higher power it will be X+Y revs/min)

5) smoothness (which is a horrible misnomer, see point 6) will likely increase simply by riding more (i.e., you get fitter) - i.e., you'll *feel* smoother

6) Perhaps paradoxically, better cyclists (i.e., elites) pedal more by *mashing* than those who are less good cyclists (i.e., state level cyclists). Coyle et al., 1991, showed that the better cyclists stomped down harder on the power phase of the pedal stroke (i.e., 12 to 6 o'clock) and pulled up less than less good cyclists who pushed down less and pulled up more. Data was from force measuring pedals and (iirc) iEMG analysis

7) There is no evidence to show that isolated leg drills do anything other than increase the ability to do isolated leg drills well. So they're pretty useless unless e.g., you partake in one-legged cycle races or only have one leg. Often the reason people improve at pedalling when doing these is a) it provides interest/stimulating when on an indoor trainer, and b) as a collarary to A they do more cycling and hence improve because of that aspect (i.e. duration)

8) As others have mentioned try doing intervals at higher cadences and see how this feels

9) Average cadence for most racing cyclists is between ~80 and 105 revs/min depending on the situation and e.g., topographical conditions

10) Anyone that writes that a higher cadence "reduces the watts per pedal stroke" should be sacked as a coach. The force requirement would be reduced not the power output. This is because power output is equal to angular velocity x torque (angular force), thus if force goes down, and cadence goes up (and conditions stay the same) then power output will stay constant

11) At a given power output, you will *always* be less efficient at higher cadences rather than lower cadences. However, *optimal* cadence (i.e., most comfortable for producing the desired power) will usually be between 80 and 100 revs/min. People who are more slow twitch fibre orientated (i.e., type I, and which you'd only know by muscle biopsy) gravitate towards a lower cadence rather than a higher cadence. Most efficient cadences, btw, are ~ 60 revs/min

12) it's unlikely that low-cadence/big gear seated trainer work would increase strength, as the forces required are likely way to low (even though it feels very fatiguing or force-sapping). To stimulate strength, forces have to be very high and as an all-out standing start would require the highest cycling forces, seated sub-maximal (i.e., sustainable) work would require a much lower function of force (as power and force decreases with increasing duration), such that strength wouldn't increase

Ric
(who trains at an average of ~ 80 revs/min, with an average race cadence of 95 revs/min according to my computer - not that i ever look at this metric while training or racing, as self-selected cadence is usually okay - i.e., we automatically select a cadence that feels most comfortable for a given power output)

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tjodit

ric_stern/RST

apologies if you didn't understand everything. however, my post wasn't just geared as a response to you, but as a response to all the previous posts on this thread.



as we've never 'spoken' before (as far as i'm aware) i wouldn't necessarily know at what level to pitch the response (i know biking newbies who wouldn't have an issue with what i wrote above, and conversely i know others who would).



see point 7 above. There's no benefit to cycling with single leg drills except in certain circumstances (e.g., you only have one leg, you take part in one legged bike races, etc).

Cycling is a gross motor control sport (i.e., it doesn't require fine motor skills, such as in e.g., rifle shooting) such that the legs rotate around a fixed point by fixed cranks (i.e., you pedal in a circle). This means that very little skill is required to pedal the bike (obviously there's skill in descending a mountain pass at speed) and produce forward movement, and as such the pedalling skills (thermodynamic efficiency) between an elite professional and an untrained person are very similar. This is because your feet are fixed to the pedals and you can't really do much wrong (unlike e.g., with running where you can look a right spanner with your legs wobbling all over the place in comparison to a Kenyan marathoner).

During cycling better cyclists push down more on the pedals and pull up less, compared to less good cyclists (see point 6). In other words, this is the opposite of what you're suggesting above.

ric

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Equus123

ric,

i'm confused at your take on single leg drills, i can't tell whether you are for or against them. apologies. i think i get the impression that you do not agree with doing them. if this is so, then i'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that topic. coming from a background in the javelin (in college as well), we practiced drills for muscle memory probably 70% of the time and only actually threw about 15-20% of the time. technique drills are imperative. i just don't understand the mentality to ride the bike all the time, which is the impression that i get from your responses. little to no weight training and no drills that break down technique (i.e. single leg drills)? Please respond. Thanks for the discussion....

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Cyclists are like men. The more T.I.T.S. they have, the better off they are.