Page 9 - Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

05-01.-2006, 12:29 PM

#121

stevebaby

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

Sure the Australians, Kiwis, British, and a few others fought. The lionshare of the work was left to the Americans. The Australians, Kiwis, Brits stood no chance of beating the Japanese on their own. The US could have beaten Japan without any other help.

You left out a few.
The dutch,timorese,chinese,vietnamese,phillipines,malays,indians,nepalese, formosans,papua new guinea,indonesia,burma.Add the total numbers up.
The majority of troops in the us armed forces were for support and logistics.
Someone had to keep the supply of ice cream and coca-cola flowing.

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06-01.-2006, 03:07 PM	#122
davidmc Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: metro dc USA Posts: 3,394	Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign checking in Attached Thumbnails __________________ I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death. George Carlin US comedian and actor (1937 - )

06-01.-2006, 05:40 PM

#123

stevebaby

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

I should have clarified that as military deaths. Russian people paid the price of the Soviet government daliances with the devils.
The Soviets signed a non-agression pact with Germany and agreed to split up Poland. When the war started in 1939, Stalin was happy to see two of his enemies(capitalist and socialist)fighting each other.
The Soviets invade Finland.
In April 1941 the Soviets signed a non-agression pact with the Japanese. The Soviets have now made a deal with a second devil.
Now comes June 1941. The first devil comes looking for his due.
While Stalin was happy to see his enemies fighting, he didn't realize that the western powers would be happy to see their enemies(Nazis and communist) fighting each other.
Then comes 1945. Stalin sees a chance to get some territory in the Far East. Fortunately, Japan surrendered before the Soviets could make any inroads. Stalin was shut out of post war Japan.
People talk about how the Soviets defeated Germany and liberated europe. I don't see it that way. All the Soviets did was remove one dictator from eastern europe and install their own dictators in his place. If that is liberation then their definition is different from mine. If the Soviets didn't make their pact with the devils perhaps the war would have ended sooner.
The Russian people paid a steep price for Stalin's ambitions.

Between may and december 1939 the soviets and japan fought a major undeclared war on the disputed mongolia/siberia border.The soviets came out of it a lot better than the japanese.
The soviets were occupied with the defence of their country from 1940 on.Stalin obviously didn't want to repeat hitler's blunder of fighting on two fronts.
The us had 5000 troops and 44 naval vessels in china at the time of the rape of nanking.What were they doing there?

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06-01.-2006, 06:51 PM

#124

stevebaby

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

Is it a red herring when you have no defense for european inaction as millions were slaughtered by the Japanese? Lets see Nanking happened in 1937. Europe didn't get to see the Blitzkrieg till Sept 1939. Maybe its because Nanking was thousands of miles away and those people beared little resemblance to your fellow europeans.

Is there anymore to know than American soldiers died in europe in a war started by europeans which could have been prevented by europeans?
Maybe that Treaty of Versailles wasn't such a great idea!

The Germans knew it was lost after Stalingrad. Hitler made many disastrous decisions there. The Russians did lose more men. But that was more to their own military leaders incompetence. The Russians also got what they deserved. Remember the Russians. They made a non-agression pact with Hitler and partitioned Poland with the Germans. They then invaded Finland in 1940. The Russians made a pact with the devil and then paid a terrible price for it.

Seems our european friends forget there was another theater of war. While the Russians were fighting the Germans, the US was fighting both the Germans and the Japanese.

The us had thousands of troops and dozens of naval vessels in china at the time of the rape of nanking.
What were they there for?
What did they do to defend the civilians in nanking?

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07-01.-2006, 05:25 AM

#125

Colorado Ryder

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by EoinC

Handing over strategic responsibility to a Nation with immense resources does not mean that we abrogated our fighting responsibilities. You are mixing the two when you talk of responsibility for defeating Japan. I give credit and appreciation for the Americans who fought, together with all the others, in the defeat of the Japanese Forces. I do not give credit to your do-it-alone crap. The Japanese were severly stretched because their frontline was absolutely enormous and contained several Nations which were fighting back with (poorly armed) guerrilla warfare. Their supply lines had reached a very tenuous stage, with many combat troops being completely cut-off.
I have never heard any WW2 Pacific Theatre Vet's (no matter what their Nationality) claim that they could have done it singlehandedly. Perhaps you are able to bring some forward?
Attached (hopefully) is a photo of the HMAS Canberra after being fatally hit during the Battle of Savo Island (part of the Battle of Guadalcanal). It went down, along with the USS Vincennes, USS Quincy and USS Astoria.
Perhaps we shall find some recognition of the 84 crew who were killed on the Canberra during our trip to Guadalcanal, CR? Oh, that's right, there were "zero" non-Americans involved.

You're right. I failed to take into account any naval operations in these campaigns. My mistake. I apologize for that. The ANZAC forces do deserve the full recognition of their sacrifices.
The ANZAC forces participation made it easier for the US to take the fight to the Japanese islands.

07-01.-2006, 05:30 AM

#126

darkboong

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

You're right.

Fair play to you CR.

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07-01.-2006, 05:33 AM

#127

Colorado Ryder

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

We don't make false claims about liberating regions.
Nor do we make false claims about what our country did or did not do in WW2.

Really. How many times have you pontificated about the Irish all packed up and joined the British army? You forgot to tell us about the unrighteous Irish lads that wanted England to fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

I never claimed my country liberated anywhere during WW2.

Quite difficult to do when the Irish remain neutral from 1939-1945.

[QUOTE=limerickmanAnd you inadvertently appeared to support the contention that America was solely responsible for the liberation of Europe [/QUOTE]
No. I never said the US was solely responsible for the liberation of europe. I said the US was a major contributor to the war in europe.

07-01.-2006, 05:37 AM

#128

Colorado Ryder

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

I highlighted the myth. about the Marshall Plan being some sort if usa benevolent gesture. The Marshall Plan wasn't some altruistic gesture with no payback. Of course there was payback. The Marshall Plan was a usa bridgehead for usa commerce. Look at the deals that were struck for usa multinational like Coca-Cola and IBM in the aftermath of the war.

Why do you care? Did the Marshall Plan help europe? It was actually an ingenius plan. We help rebuild europe with American taxpers dollars and europe benefits and Americans benefit. A win-win situation. Sounds like good business and political thinking.

07-01.-2006, 05:42 AM

#129

Colorado Ryder

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkboong

Which people ?

I have not met anyone here or elsewhere in real life who claims that the Soviets "Liberated" Europe (including Russian Communists). Incidentally many Russians (and Poles for that matter) *still* harbour a deep mistrust of Germans, even kids of my generation.

You know who thinks that? And I should have considered that......Carrera!
He also thinks Stalin was good for Russia because Stalin brought Russia into the modern world.

The Poles also distrust the Russians, as do the Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, etc.

07-01.-2006, 08:43 AM

#130

EoinC

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

Thanks, CR. I appreciate your response.
Regards,
Eoin

07-01.-2006, 10:27 AM

#131

limerickman

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

Really. How many times have you pontificated about the Irish all packed up and joined the British army? You forgot to tell us about the unrighteous Irish lads that wanted England to fail.

I stated that 150,000 Irish men joined the British army to fight in WW2, despite the political decision of our country to remain neutral.
I stated this to show that although our political leaders took a decision, their decision was not supported by a sizable proportion of Irish citizens.

Which still doesn't let you off the hook about claims about the US liberating Europe.

And if you want to talk about unrighteous people - discuss the American companies who openly profited from dealing with the Nazi's, while selling to the British during 1939-1941.

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morelike hypocrisy.

07-01.-2006, 11:05 AM

#132

Colorado Ryder

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Which still doesn't let you off the hook about claims about the US liberating Europe.

Didn't say that, but the US did play a huge role in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

And if you want to talk about unrighteous people - discuss the American companies who openly profited from dealing with the Nazi's, while selling to the British during 1939-1941.

We can discuss that when you talk about Sean Russell and Eion O'Duffy. You remember he was the one who died coming back to Ireland on a Nazi u-boat.
The same guy the Irish erected a statue of in Dublin. What was he doing in Berlin? Or your PM and president that both signed the condolence book after hearing of Hitler's death. Or how the IRA was trying to work with the Nazis. Does that Kathleen Plan sound familiar to you?
If you want to criticize other countries I suggest you be prepared to have your own country's activities talked about.

07-01.-2006, 12:09 PM

#133

stevebaby

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

Didn't say that, but the US did play a huge role in it.

We can discuss that when you talk about Sean Russell and Eion O'Duffy. You remember he was the one who died coming back to Ireland on a Nazi u-boat.
The same guy the Irish erected a statue of in Dublin. What was he doing in Berlin? Or your PM and president that both signed the condolence book after hearing of Hitler's death. Or how the IRA was trying to work with the Nazis. Does that Kathleen Plan sound familiar to you?
If you want to criticize other countries I suggest you be prepared to have your own country's activities talked about.

What about the activities of the Bund in the us?
Just to keep everything balanced,oswald mosley,vichy france,the ustasha,quislings,franco ad infinitum.At least ireland wasn't a party to any alliances and the irish government could reasonably be expected to act in the best interests of its citizens.Entry into WWll would have exposed them to enormous risk as they had virtually no navy or air force and very few anti aircraft defences.They would have been extremely vulnerable to u boat attack.Obviously they acted on the principle that "My enemy's enemy is my friend" as many other governments have done throughout history.

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07-01.-2006, 12:54 PM

#134

FredC

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

I declare an interest, although not in the same theatre. In 1939 my Uncle Bill was serving on HMS Triton, a submarine patrolling the seas around Orbestrad, Norway. HMAS Oxley failed to respond to signals and signalling and was torpedoed with the loss of all lives. He himself was sunk with all hands in the Adriatic. But this is just to show that the Australian forces were up to their neck in it from the start.
And for those who don't know 25% of UK and Irish soldiers captured by the Japanese were killed by their captors. Never heard of the Burma Road?

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07-01.-2006, 01:29 PM	#135
EoinC Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Deepest, Darkest West Central Africa Posts: 1,464	Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign Since we're now pretty much in agreement that a shiteload of people from all corners of the World made enormous sacrifices on our behalf during WW2, how much understanding and recognition do you see in the younger ones in your respective Countries when it comes time for whatever Memorial Day that applies? In NZ and Australia, ANZAC Day was a big deal when I was a kid. Then, in the 1970's I guess, interest seemed to die off, partly because of the changing World and partly because many of the Veterans had reached a stage where their mates were starting to drop off, and ANZAC Day seemed to them to be almost a celebration of War. In the 1980's it seemed to undergo a resurgence and the focus returned to paying respect to all those who had participated and, in particular, those who gave their lives. My wife is Thai but, every ANZAC Day, whether I'm there or not, she'll drag our daughters out of bed to attend the Dawn Service. Last year I was here in Miri, Sarawak, and there was no service held, but 2004 I attended the one in Kuala Lumpur and there were families from all over the World, standing in the pre-dawn dark at the Military Annex of the Cheras Cemetary. It was a great experience. It is very difficult not to be moved by such things. What are your respective Remembrance / Memorial Days like? Do they hold the same value in society as they did when you were young (assuming that you are all 'old' now)? Do you think that kids now know who fought who during WW2, or is it fading into the background?

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