Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Colorado Ryder

I should have clarified that as military deaths. Russian people paid the price of the Soviet government daliances with the devils.
The Soviets signed a non-agression pact with Germany and agreed to split up Poland. When the war started in 1939, Stalin was happy to see two of his enemies(capitalist and socialist)fighting each other.
The Soviets invade Finland.
In April 1941 the Soviets signed a non-agression pact with the Japanese. The Soviets have now made a deal with a second devil.
Now comes June 1941. The first devil comes looking for his due.
While Stalin was happy to see his enemies fighting, he didn't realize that the western powers would be happy to see their enemies(Nazis and communist) fighting each other.
Then comes 1945. Stalin sees a chance to get some territory in the Far East. Fortunately, Japan surrendered before the Soviets could make any inroads. Stalin was shut out of post war Japan.
People talk about how the Soviets defeated Germany and liberated europe. I don't see it that way. All the Soviets did was remove one dictator from eastern europe and install their own dictators in his place. If that is liberation then their definition is different from mine. If the Soviets didn't make their pact with the devils perhaps the war would have ended sooner.
The Russian people paid a steep price for Stalin's ambitions.

EoinC

So, CR, perhaps you would like to give us a run-down on all the fronts where the Japanese Forces were engaged without American Troop involvement? That didn't help the cause? The US version of Asia-Pacific seems to be that the War was only fought in places where the Americans had victories. Never mind that others were doing battle throughout the Malay Archipeligo, PNG and Indo-China. WW2 was not just the Battle of the Coral Sea and the bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
I find it difficult to believe that American WW2 Vets would agree with what you are saying. I feel sorry for all the people of many Nationalities who died fighting the Japanese as, apparently, it was completely unnecessary.
You seem to believe that the Europeans are ungrateful for the sacrifices made by US Forces in the European Campaigns. You appear at least as ungrateful for the sacrifices the rest of us made in assisting the US after Pearl Harbour. Not impressed, CR.
A mate of mine (now deceased) who was shot down over (what is now) PNG would have been glad to know that he could have stayed home on the farm in Western Australia, as the US didn't need his help fighting the Japanese who had taken the North and East of PNG.
Strange that the Americans didn't say so at the time. Perhaps they did appreciate a little assistance - more than you seem to.
I very much hope that your version of history is not representative of that believed by the people of the USA today.
Let me know when you are making your next trip to Sandakan Military Cemetary in Sabah, Borneo and I'll come over and meet you there.

darkboong

Which people ?

I have not met anyone here or elsewhere in real life who claims that the Soviets "Liberated" Europe (including Russian Communists). Incidentally many Russians (and Poles for that matter) *still* harbour a deep mistrust of Germans, even kids of my generation.



No shit. I haven't heard anyone claim that Stalin was good for Russia.

limerickman

Unlike you, I never claimed that my country single handedly liberated anywhere during the second world war.
You need to stick with the topic and not try to change the subject.

You stated that the US single handedly beat the Japanese.
That's complete crap.

You were also caught out on Herbert Hoover and his speeches regarding German invasion of Czechozlovakia.

You claim that your country contributed to the war effort.
It only contributed after 1941 - until 1941 it filled it's pockets on the misery
of the war in Europe.

Isolationism was the phrase you used to excuse yer country's profiteeting
between 1939-1941.
Your country and it's industry made huge money from shipments of goods and services to both sides of the conflict between 1939-1941.
Only when Japan forced you in to the war did your country feel obliged
to "fight evil", as you call it.

In the meantime, Prescott Bush, Joe Jennedy, Henry Ford, IBM, General Motors, Chase Bank, Consolidated Steel, were all happy to do plenty of business with the Nazi's.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Colorado Ryder

I never said Aussie, Kiwi, and British assistance wasn't appreciated. Their fighting shortened the war. They kept Jap troops engaged. The fact remains that the US would have defeated Japan without assistance if it came to that. It would have taken longer but the outcome would have still been the same.

Where were the Japanese engaged without American forces? Borneo and Burma. Pretty much where the Aussies and Brits stayed for the war. In 1942 the Aussies and the British gave strategic responsibility for defeating Japan to the US. Now if you give us the resonsibility to defeat Japan and we do it, don't critisize us when we take the credit for it.

Ungrateful? You mean like Limerickman? He accuses the US of war profiteering because we didn't rush into war in 1939. Then claims that the US contribution to european war was equal to all the other nations. Then goes on about how the Marshall Plan was only something to help US companies. Something that worked out well for europe and he chastises the US because it benefited as well. That is ungrateful.

Next time I take a trip to Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Guam, Saipan, Iwo Jima, Okinawa I'll let you know. You can help point out which graves are not American soldiers or Japanese soldiers.

EoinC

Wrong. Guadalcanal (to those who don't know) was the Battle for the Solomans. The Australian Cruiser "Canberra" was sunk during the battle - quite difficult to do if you're not participating?
CR, you didn't even know that we had been called in to assist you - "HMNZ Ships ACHILLES, LEANDER and MONOWAI were retained with several destroyers in a separate task group employed on convoy escort duties outside the operational theatre. However by September, American losses in cruisers were such that they became actively employed in operations to the beachhead."
(Ref - http://www.navy.mil.nz/know-your-na...vy-solomons.htm)
Perhaps others involved then appreciated the efforts of 18.4% of our population than you do now.

Colorado Ryder

I guess Irish kids are not taught about the shame of Ireland. You accuse the US of adding to the misery, but you're own countrymen were aiding and abetting the Nazis. What is that saying, I think you know what it is, "England's misfortune is Ireland's opportunity" or something like that.

Our country did fight evil. Yours did not. It decided to sit out the "emergency". In fact your prime minister thought it would be rude if the government did not express condolences to the German people after Hitler's death.

limerickman

That's correct you didn't.

What you did say was the the USA liberated the Pacific.
That's what you said.




That's speculation at best.





The allies beat the Japanese : the Allies get the credit.





That's correct, your country was profiteering from the misery in Europe by selling to both sides in the conflict.



The usa contribution to the war in Europe was, in my opinion, less than the contribution of the USSR and Britain





I highlighted the myth. about the Marshall Plan being some sort if usa benevolent gesture.
The Marshall Plan wasn't some altruistic gesture with no payback.
Of course there was payback.
The Marshall Plan was a usa bridgehead for usa commerce.
Look at the deals that were struck for usa multinational like Coca-Cola and IBM in the aftermath of the war.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

We don't make false claims about liberating regions.
Nor do we make false claims about what our country did or did not do in WW2.

As I read it, you made several claims concerning WW2 and your country.
No one here disputed your country's involvement.
But fair is fair, by accusing others of appeasement while trying to claim credit
for contributions is what has got you in to this difficulty CR.

I never claimed my country liberated anywhere during WW2.

But you deny that your country profitted from staying out of the war.
You also tried to downplay the role of the other brave allies.
And you inadvertently appeared to support the contention that America
was solely responsible for the liberation of Europe and you appear to try
to claim precedence over the British/Australian/New Zealand fight in the Pacific.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

In relation to WW2, the Australian and New Zealand forces were not only deployed in the Pacific against the Japanese, but they were also deployed in Africa and in the Mediterranean and fought between 1939-1941.
The ANZACS provided essential manpower in battles such as Tobruk, El Alamein.
Effectively the ANZACS were in both the war in Europe and the Pacific.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

EoinC

"Despite Herculean efforts and technical breakthroughs, the complete recovery of Japanese Army codes still defied the Central Bureau's skilled decryptanalysts, and consequently much of the Japanese Army order of battle information depended on the less reliable system of traffic analysis.7 Then in late January 1944 the capture of the main Japanese Army codes and ciphers "brought a sudden embarrassment of riches to Arlington Hall, and early in February the Japanese section began to be deluged with a daily flow of thousands of readable Japanese Army messages.""
(Ref - http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resou...i/Drea/Drea.asp)
'Central Bureau' was a joint American / Australian interception and decrytion service, operating out of Brisbane, Australia, feeding information to the Military Intelligence Service in Virginia, USA.

EoinC

Handing over strategic responsibility to a Nation with immense resources does not mean that we abrogated our fighting responsibilities. You are mixing the two when you talk of responsibility for defeating Japan. I give credit and appreciation for the Americans who fought, together with all the others, in the defeat of the Japanese Forces. I do not give credit to your do-it-alone crap. The Japanese were severly stretched because their frontline was absolutely enormous and contained several Nations which were fighting back with (poorly armed) guerrilla warfare. Their supply lines had reached a very tenuous stage, with many combat troops being completely cut-off.
I have never heard any WW2 Pacific Theatre Vet's (no matter what their Nationality) claim that they could have done it singlehandedly. Perhaps you are able to bring some forward?
Attached (hopefully) is a photo of the HMAS Canberra after being fatally hit during the Battle of Savo Island (part of the Battle of Guadalcanal). It went down, along with the USS Vincennes, USS Quincy and USS Astoria.
Perhaps we shall find some recognition of the 84 crew who were killed on the Canberra during our trip to Guadalcanal, CR? Oh, that's right, there were "zero" non-Americans involved.

Attached Thumbnails

 

EoinC

We could start our Gilbert Island tour here, maybe?
http://www.dva.gov.au/media/publica..._mem_beito.html

stevebaby

The company that manufactured bomb sights for the luftwaffe was the german subsidiary of a us company.When the factory was destroyed by allied bombing they sued,successfully,the us government for compensation.

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