Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

davidmc

It is much like our Cuba situation. No one wants to be the one to be remembered for pulling the plug on Cuba or Israel. It may come down to a simple matter of vote-garnering. $14 billion (u.s.)/year is a sizeable "gift", especially when the results are not readily apparent. Add to this the fact that a great majority of Americans will never even visit Israel due to the lack of ethnic ties or the lack of funds.

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

Wurm

Hey Brainless Sheep (wolfux): I'd be careful about tossing around epithets if I were you, until such time as you've extracted your cranium from your rectum and have bought a clue.

I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.

__________________
"Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense."

- John Dean, former Counsel to the President (Nixon)

The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.

EoinC

Wolfix - The Brits and Europeans do have people to thank for helping out in the defeat of the Axis Powers (including the Americans, and us Sheepshaggers from the South). The US played a rôle, but no more than many other Nations did and, as with many of us, it was not for entirely altruistic reasons.
Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ties_by_country
for some interesting statistics. We (New Zealand) were, like the USA removed from initial direct threat to our homeland. We joined the fight at the time when Britain engaged in hostilities - 11:15am, 3rd September, 1939 (We, and the Aussies, couldn't wait to help after the poor planning of British Officers had managed to wipe out a large quota of our farming stock at Anzac Cove in the Battle of Gallipoli during WW1 - "Lest we forget"). In WW2, we lost 7.6 military per 1,000 of the Nation's population (nearly as high as Britain's 7.7 combined military & civilian deaths per 1,000 population). The US lost 3.2 people per 1,000 population. All of this pales against the loss of those Countries who felt the true brunt of the destruction, with Germany, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, East (Portuguese) Timor and the Soviet Union each losing over 10% of their respective populations. Interesting to note that, of the Allied military deaths during WW2, China, with 4 million, contributed 25%, 2nd only to the Soviet Union's 65%, with 10.6 million. The Soviet Union combined military and civillian deaths make up 37% of all deaths for the whole World in WW2.
I think everyone would acknowledge the help of the US Forces and the sacrifices they made, but the popular image that is presented of winning WW2 single-handed is incorrect. The Soviet Front is where the Axis Forces collapsed beyond salvation and it was due largely to the tenacity of those they were fighting and the conditions experienced. The Axis, on the back foot already, was engaged on too many fronts to be able to withstand the enslaught. The images presented by Hollywood (which many in society now seem to view as being documentaries rather than movies) are sadly lacking in their presentation of surrounding and preceeding events.

limerickman

Part of the idea behind the EEC/EC/EU was to ensure that by bringing European nation closer together, that this would prevent the causes that created WWI and WWII.
That was the objective behind the Treaty of Rome in 1957 (the basis upon which the EU was founded).



There is no love lost between Germans and Russians, Germans and Poles for that matter also.
WWII and all that went on is fresh in the minds of a lot of people still.

As regards Ireland - I agree, racism plays it's part in our history.
One could say that Northern ireland is down to racism on both sides.
I was shocked to learn of how large numbers of Irish people emigrated to South Africa because they liked the notion of the Apartheid system and openly supported it.



The American effort in the war is appreciated.
I don't think anyone here disputed the fact that the USA played it's part in the downfall of Nazism.
What people dispute is the notion that it was solely the USA which "saved"
Europe.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

For the record, the reason why I didn't refer to the Australian and New Zealand effort in WWII was because the ANZACS forces were primarily against the Japanese forces in Asia.
Obviously the ANZAC contribution was very essential to the war effort.

Thanks for those stats Eoin, it certainly quantifies the sacrifice made by the Soviets and others.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

darkboong

You mean the British Empire, England was a tiny weeny part of it.

That was simply never going to happen, the Germans failed to win control of the Air and the Sea in 1941 long *before* the Americans made any impact in Europe (USAF 8th being the single biggest factor). The Battle of Britain really did turn the tide of the war as far as the Britain was concerned. The Luftwaffe lost practically *all* their offensive capability, nearly all their defensive capability and their nearly all of their best Aircrews. They had nothing left to hit Britain with, and what little they had was spent trying to eliminate the Russians.

Economically Britain was ruined anyway. The Boer War is often cited as the first manifestation of the decline of the British Empire (1899-1902, Concentration Camps were widely used by the British during the Boer War ). Shortly afterwards the First World War and that war bankrupted Britain and decimated the military. So by the outbreak of World War II the Empire's decline was already in full swing, if anything WWII was the coup-de-grace.

Colorado Ryder

Is it a red herring when you have no defense for european inaction as millions were slaughtered by the Japanese? Lets see Nanking happened in 1937. Europe didn't get to see the Blitzkrieg till Sept 1939. Maybe its because Nanking was thousands of miles away and those people beared little resemblance to your fellow europeans.


Is there anymore to know than American soldiers died in europe in a war started by europeans which could have been prevented by europeans?
Maybe that Treaty of Versailles wasn't such a great idea!


The Germans knew it was lost after Stalingrad. Hitler made many disastrous decisions there. The Russians did lose more men. But that was more to their own military leaders incompetence. The Russians also got what they deserved. Remember the Russians. They made a non-agression pact with Hitler and partitioned Poland with the Germans. They then invaded Finland in 1940. The Russians made a pact with the devil and then paid a terrible price for it.

Seems our european friends forget there was another theater of war. While the Russians were fighting the Germans, the US was fighting both the Germans and the Japanese.

Colorado Ryder

Reminds me of an irishman who neglects to tell everyone that his own country remained neutral. When it was time to stand up and be counted with the nations on the good side, the irish government remained seated. The irish government's hatred of the English was greater than their hatred of Nazi atrocities. In fact the irish leader signed the condolence book at the German embassy after hearing of Hitler's death.
Why do you chastise the US for not entering the war until 1941, when your own country never entered the war?

limerickman

In the aftermath of Pearl Harbour, the USA declared war with Japan and with it's
(Japan's) partner Germany.
It had no other choice.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

We were over this ground before if I recall.

The Irish goverment took the political decision to remain neutral.
However, 150,000 Irishmen enlisted to fight against the Nazi's.
Most of these men joined the British Army.
The same Army which had occupied Ireland twenty years previously.




I highlight the lack of US involvement in WWII between 1939-1941 to highlight the fact that the USA only joined the war effort when it was attacked.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Colorado Ryder

Yep. When it was time for your government to stand up and be counted as those against evil, YOUR government remained firmly seated.


Tell us again why Americans should have fought in a war started by europeans. Hitler didn't attack the US. He posed no threat to the US.
Seems as though we Americans could have watched you europeans beat each other to a bloody pulp.

limerickman

I acknowledged this.

I also acknowledged the fact that 150,000 Irishmen, despite their goverments
political stance volunteered to fight in WWII.






Hitlers ally (Japan) attacked the USA in 1941.



The point was made earlier (not by you, but by a fellow American) that the USA did us Europeans a favour by helping out in WWII.

My contention has always been that your country was prepared not to join in WWII and to continue to profit from it's armament sales for the duration of the war, unless attacked.
It did profit between 1939-1941 afterall.




When the Japanese attacked your country, you had no choice but to attack Japan and it's ally Germany.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Colorado Ryder

You acknowledge that your government behaved cowardly during WWII.


You have still not given one reason why Americans should have fought in a war started by europeans and fought in europe.


You and Darkboong says Americans don't know history. Apparently neither do either of you. America in the 1930's was very isolationist. Public sentiment was that the war in europe was a european affair. It should be settled by europeans. Again, one reason why Americans should have fought in a european war.


Not true. The US declared war on Japan on December 8th. Roosevelt didn't include Germany. Germany had not attacked the US. Germany declared war on the US on December 11th.

limerickman

It is you who stated that my country's goverment were cowardly.

Why do you not accuse your country of being cowardly between 1939-1941?
After all, your goverment chose not to fight against, what you describe as,
evil between 1939-1941?



My contention from the outset regarding WWII and the USA, is that the USA
was fully prepared to not get involved in the war.
I have stated this throughout.

Your country only decided to join WWII after it was attacked by Germany's
Axis ally, Japan.



If I recall America was on it's knees economically during the 1930's.
In the period after the 1929 crash, unemployment rocketted and your country was pre-occupied with trying to solve it's own problems without having to get involved in other conflicts like those of Spain for example.



Roosevelt was restricted by the Neutrality Act - so you are correct.
Even though Japan was an ally of Germany, Roosevelt couldn't declare war
on Germany even though the dogs in the street knew that Germany fully supported Japans attack on the USA.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.