Page 2 - Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

31-12.-2005, 09:47 AM

#16

limerickman

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister C

Totally agree with your post Lim.

"Of no concern"? Please remember that US government officials are primarily motivated by money which flows from large corporations and special interest groups, not ordinary citizens. Shrub was certainly concerned with all that oil in Iraq.

King Shrub is certainly not interested in morals or doing the right thing. Witness the fact that Shrub only signed the no torture bill after he was forced to do so.

America must stop being the World's policeman. The Iraq War has only inflamed an already radical segment of Muslims and certainly does not make the world a safer place.

Not to go over old ground but I certainly agree 100% that this current administration is more interested in money, than in the ordinary US (and foreign) citizen.

99.9% of Americans I have met, are honourable decent people.
I don't think that they represent or would choose to be represented by
what currently passes for US goverment policy.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

31-12.-2005, 01:45 PM

#17

wolfix

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Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: "Still in 1975"

Posts: 2,722

Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

So you're saying that 9/11 justifies the illegal taping of communications ?

I condemn the 9/11 attacks.

But to try to state that taping has prevented further attacks on your country
is naive.

The fact of the matter is that your president acted outside of the law to evesdrop illegally on your country's citizens.
If there was popular support for the evesdropping to prevent "terrorism", why did he do so without recourse to the judicial system?

On the wider question as to why a threat is posed to your country, you and your fellow citizens need to examine why your goverment choses to involve itself abraod in areas and issues which are of no concern to your country.

I do not condone the illegal taping of citizens. However, the point of my post was to show it was Clinton that implemented the program. And I need to see where these tapings are illegal. So far , nothing has been proven illegal. And going back to Mister C's assement that 3k/7 billion is not a great threat when it comes to lives, then the 5oo warrents issued to conduct evesdropping is far less then any threat.

Planes hitting the WTC are not a great threat as far as Mister C is concerned, but he seems to be concerned that citizens conducting business may be overheard. Bush was voted in to protect Americans. Something a percentage of democrats felt that Kerry could not do .
The legal evesdropping did prevent the Brooklyn Bridge bombing . So yes, the evesdropping has been effective. And how many others that are not disclosed?

But you had to love the comment ..........
""This is Big Brother run amok," declared Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass. "
I wonder if Chappaquidick was " Drunken younger brother run amok!"
----------------------------------------------------------------

Some of these involvements do involve the US and it's commercial interests. Governments that allow American capitolism to prosper in their countries and bring weath to their countries have sold their right to dictate to the US. They sold that right. And everyone that wants to be so concerned with human rights that is screaming about America's illegal war in Iraq where the fuck were you when Saddam was gassing the Kurds?
And you Europeans??? Wait until the Germans start swarming all over your countries again .... probably in the next 10 years....
The American politicians owe nothing to anyone outside our borders. They owe their best to US citizens and only to US citizens.

__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."

31-12.-2005, 02:59 PM	#18
ptlwp Registered User Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 544	Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign Widely regarded as a top military historian, Martin van Creveld has written books that have been influential in shaping modern theories of warfare. The U.S. Army makes his work required reading for its officers. That's why it was so remarkable when he described America's invasion of Iraq in 2003 as "the most foolish war since Emperor Augustus in 9 BC sent his legions into Germany and lost them." Tragic and very sad. The Ugly American __________________ "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." Sir Edmund Burke

31-12.-2005, 03:33 PM	#19
Wurm Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 2,148	Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign Since there is absolutely no legal or sane justification for the Bush Admin's behavior, wolf-o-whizz has nothing left but to dredge up the very ancient and irrelevant history of "Clinton" and "Chappaquiddick". Typical. Right-Wing. Lemming. Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense." - John Dean, former Counsel to the President (Nixon) The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.

31-12.-2005, 03:37 PM

#20

Wurm

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 2,148

Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelist

Isn't this thread a few years late coming?

I've been saying this since Chimp's first fraudulent, stolen election in 2000. I am not a bit surprised by what has transpired in the 4+ years hence.

Since they got away with phony, fraudulent elections for President of the U.S. - not just once but twice - should anyone think that ANY criminal deed thereafter would give them pause??

__________________
"Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense."

- John Dean, former Counsel to the President (Nixon)

The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.

Last edited by Wurm : 31-12.-2005 at 03:47 PM.

31-12.-2005, 03:38 PM

#21

davidmc

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Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: metro dc USA

Posts: 3,394

Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Some of us were urging the Merkins not to re-elect Bush in November 2004 for a
whole plethora of reasons.

Even if the fact that he launched and illegal and unethical invasion of a sovereign country (Iraq) was not enough to persuade the Merkins, just look at what he has done to his own people.
Wire taps.

Look at his (mis) management of the US economy.

I see that the November trade deficit was $68b.
He managed to break his own previous deficit record.

Anyway, you can't say that we never told you so.........

The merits or lack thereof pertaining to your post aside, I would appreciate the disuse of derogatory terms towards peoples countrymen. Namely: Americans. No other country on the planet, to my limited perusal of this soapbox, is singled out w/ the use of derogatory terminology such as Ireland, England, Scotland, Spain, ect... This continual practice by a limited # of persons on this box bothers me. Am I asking too much

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

31-12.-2005, 03:39 PM

#22

davidmc

Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: metro dc USA

Posts: 3,394

Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

You europeans have been telling us Americans whats best for us the last 229 years. Good thing we don't listen.

Here, here

31-12.-2005, 03:57 PM

#23

Wurm

Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 2,148

Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptlwp

...That's why it was so remarkable when he
described America's invasion of Iraq in 2003 as "the most foolish war
since Emperor Augustus in 9 BC sent his legions into Germany and lost
them."

"Brought To You Byyyy....the good folks that brought you 9/11, torture oh so "quaint", illegal wiretaps, secret agent outings, and the lies to go with them!"

31-12.-2005, 04:04 PM

#24

davidmc

Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: metro dc USA

Posts: 3,394

Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wurm

"Brought To You Byyyy....the good folks that brought you 9/11, torture oh so "quaint", illegal wiretaps, secret agent outings, and the lies to go with them!"

Thankfully, we have this to look frwd to

Quote:

The Abramoff-Reed Indian Gambling Scandal (a.k.a. the "InGam Scam") is a U.S. political scandal involving the work done by political lobbyists Jack Abramoff, Ralph E. Reed, Jr., Grover Norquist and Michael Scanlon on behalf of Indian casino gambling interests. The lobbyists are accused of orchestrating lobbying against their own clients in order to force them to pay for lobbying services.

In the course of the scheme, the lobbyists are accused of illegally giving gifts and making campaign donations to legislators in return for votes or support of legislation. Politicians implicated include Tom DeLay, Byron Dorgan, Conrad Burns, Tom Harkin and Bob Ney.

In addition to his involvement in the Indian Gambling scandal, Abramoff is under investigation by a grand jury in Guam over possibly illegal contract payments and money laundering and was indicted on August 11, 2005 by a third grand jury in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, for a $23 million bank fraud arising out of the purchase of the SunCruz casino boat company. Abramoff is also a 'person of interest' in the murder investigation of Konstantinos Boulis, the original owner of SunCruz.

Contents [hide]
1 Background
2 Allegations of corrupt lobbying practices
2.1 Allegation of double dealing
2.2 Alleged spending irregularities
2.3 American international center
2.4 Insulting references to clients
2.5 Comments by politicians
2.6 Reed's denial
3 Alleged influence peddling
3.1 House Majority Leader Tom DeLay
3.2 U.S. Representative Bob Ney
3.3 U.S. Rep. Tom Feeney III
3.4 U.S. Rep. Richard Pombo
3.5 U.S. Rep. Mike Ferguson
3.6 U.S. Senator Byron Dorgan
3.7 U.S. Senator Conrad Burns
3.8 U.S. Senator John Cornyn
3.9 U.S. Senator David Vitter
3.10 U.S. Senator Tom Harkin
3.11 U.S. Senator Charles Grassley
3.12 State Senator William Gormley
3.13 Edward Miller and Governor Robert L. Ehrlich Jr.
3.14 Timothy Flanigan
3.15 Deputy United States Secretary of the Interior J. Steven Griles
3.16 David Safavian
4 Returned donations
5 People who claim they will return donations

[edit]
Background
Abramoff, Reed and Norquist all served as officers in the College Republican National Committee (CRNC). In college, Reed would sleep on Abramoff’s couch. According to his book "Active Faith," he also introduced Abramoff to his future wife.

Abramoff was elected Chairman of the CRNC in 1983, and appointed Reed Executive Director of the CRNC in the same year, succeeding Norquist. Norquist had managed Abramoff's campaign for National Chairman and would later found Americans for Tax Reform, an anti-tax group which would later serve as a fundraising conduit in the Indian gaming scandal.

At the CRNC, Abramoff, Norquist and Reed formed what was known as the "Abramoff-Norquist-Reed triumvirate." Upon Abramoff's election, the trio purged "dissidents" and re-wrote the CRNC's bylaws to consolidate their control over the organization. Reed was the "hatchet man" and "carried out Abramoff-Norquist orders with ruthless efficiency, not bothering to hide his fingerprints." (Nina J. Easton, Gang of Five, page 142)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramo...ambling_Scandal

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Last edited by davidmc : 31-12.-2005 at 04:09 PM.

31-12.-2005, 04:15 PM	#25
Wurm Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 2,148	Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign Too bad about Dorgan and Harkin, but I'm willing to bet anything that there are many Dems just as guilty in the cover-up of 9/11 and the phony 9/11 Commission findings, etc., etc., ad infinitum. Which is why the bogus Iraq conflict is still going on, and why the great majority of Congress is doing nothing about the fascism in this country today. Guess what folks? We're fucked. __________________ "Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense." - John Dean, former Counsel to the President (Nixon) The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.

31-12.-2005, 10:34 PM

#26

limerickman

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Join Date: Jan 2004

Location: at the bar

Posts: 12,649

Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmc

The merits or lack of, regarding your request are duly noted - and rejected.

I suggest you peruse other websites, if this ain't to your taste.

31-12.-2005, 11:07 PM

#27

limerickman

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Posts: 12,649

Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfix

I do not condone the illegal taping of citizens. However, the point of my post was to show it was Clinton that implemented the program. And I need to see where these tapings are illegal.

As far as I am aware, Wolf, a judge has to issue a court order authorising the taping of phones.

If Clinton taped phones without getting a judicial order, he is equally culpable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfix

Planes hitting the WTC are not a great threat as far as Mister C is concerned, but he seems to be concerned that citizens conducting business may be overheard. Bush was voted in to protect Americans. Something a percentage of democrats felt that Kerry could not do .
The legal evesdropping did prevent the Brooklyn Bridge bombing . So yes, the evesdropping has been effective. And how many others that are not disclosed?

To quantify what has been prevented is impossible to verify.
Like all so called preventative measures, the results of those preventative measures is always invoked to justify illegal activity.
I go back to my point : if there really was a groundswell of support for the taping of phones for the purposes of preventing terrorist attacks, why the cloak and dagger approach by Bush?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfix

But you had to love the comment ..........
""This is Big Brother run amok," declared Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass. "
I wonder if Chappaquidick was " Drunken younger brother run amok!"
----------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know what Chappaquidick has got to do with taping peoples phones - but for the record I don't support people who drink/drive.

Chappaquidick doesn't mitigate the veracity of Kennedy's point.

Remember Osama BinLaden is Bush's raison d'etre.
A point lost on a lot of people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfix

Some of these involvements do involve the US and it's commercial interests. Governments that allow American capitolism to prosper in their countries and bring weath to their countries have sold their right to dictate to the US. They sold that right. And everyone that wants to be so concerned with human rights that is screaming about America's illegal war in Iraq where the fuck were you when Saddam was gassing the Kurds?
And you Europeans??? Wait until the Germans start swarming all over your countries again .... probably in the next 10 years....
The American politicians owe nothing to anyone outside our borders. They owe their best to US citizens and only to US citizens.

.....and that's the reason why the majority of countries apart from perhaps Britain do not support US goverment policy.

Look the simple fact is that capital, as you call it, isn't the sole preserve of the USA.
Your country's companies are leaving the USA in droves because they realise that better rates of production, better educated employees, better quality standards pertain in many locations outside of the USA.
I work with three US multinational companies at present - worldwide, well respected companies, who are household names.
The US management of these companies tell me that each of these operations outperform their US counterparts in every key management indicator.
Paying their employees on average €18 euro per hour (=$22.00 per hour) the
suggests that they're not here because of cheaper wages.
Your country would kill for companies to be paying those rates of pay.

And invoking that old chestnut about Germany conquering Europe : your country did not enter the war between 1939-1941 : so while Germany was on the march, your country did nothing.
Apart from profit from the armements shipments that is.

American politicians may well owe foreigners nothing.
I dispute that but....but I'm prepared to see your viewpoint.

But don't you think that your fellow citizens deserve better than that moron
Bush?

01-01.-2006, 12:41 AM

#28

Wurm

Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 2,148

Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

And invoking that old chestnut about Germany conquering Europe : your country did not enter the war between 1939-1941 : so while Germany was on the march, your country did nothing.
Apart from profit from the armements shipments that is.

Prescott Bush did profit from the war - and not from the Allies' side but from conducting illegal war materiel biz with the Nazi's.

He was stopped by FDR.

Now, grandson Chimpy is carrying on the family tradition.

01-01.-2006, 01:13 AM

#29

limerickman

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wurm

The other side always throw in the fact that the USA "saved" Europe, to counter European criticism of US foreign policy.
The USA played it's part no doubt in WW2.
As did the Soviets.

But as you rightly point out, the Bush's profitted the Nazi's.
Even Joe Kennedy (as US ambassador to Britain in the 1930's) advocated appeasing Hitler.
That would make ole Joe and Prescott allies, non?

01-01.-2006, 02:46 AM

#30

davidmc

Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: metro dc USA

Posts: 3,394

Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

The merits or lack of, regarding your request are duly noted - and rejected.

I suggest you peruse other websites, if this ain't to your taste.

Lets be serious for a moment shall we? I am one of the "regular" members here w/ a substantial amount of post's. This would indicate that I know full well the practices which the forum dictates.
As to your reply, you would not mind people using derisive terms for Irishmen. Glad thats settled. We wouldn't want a double-standard. That wouldn't be sporting would it?

Last edited by davidmc : 01-01.-2006 at 02:56 AM.

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