Page 10 - Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

07-01.-2006, 01:39 PM

#136

stevebaby

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredC

I declare an interest, although not in the same theatre. In 1939 my Uncle Bill was serving on HMS Triton, a submarine patrolling the seas around Orbestrad, Norway. HMAS Oxley failed to respond to signals and signalling and was torpedoed with the loss of all lives. He himself was sunk with all hands in the Adriatic. But this is just to show that the Australian forces were up to their neck in it from the start.
And for those who don't know 25% of UK and Irish soldiers captured by the Japanese were killed by their captors. Never heard of the Burma Road?

Yep,the burma campaign was just as hard as any of the amphibious landings.Perhaps harder since they didn't have any nice comfortable ships to travel in and very few roads,just lots of very thick jungle.
I'm just looking at a map of SE asia and it appears to me that the brit and allied forces actually recaptured more land mass than the us forces,with less troops and under more difficult conditions.

For an interesting perspective on war in general try googling major general smedley butler,usmc ret'd. (twice decorated with congressional medal of honour).Written in 1934 but still relevant and also interesting to see how reperb. ideology has changed over the years.

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07-01.-2006, 01:56 PM

#137

stevebaby

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by EoinC

Since we're now pretty much in agreement that a shiteload of people from all corners of the World made enormous sacrifices on our behalf during WW2, how much understanding and recognition do you see in the younger ones in your respective Countries when it comes time for whatever Memorial Day that applies?
In NZ and Australia, ANZAC Day was a big deal when I was a kid. Then, in the 1970's I guess, interest seemed to die off, partly because of the changing World and partly because many of the Veterans had reached a stage where their mates were starting to drop off, and ANZAC Day seemed to them to be almost a celebration of War.
In the 1980's it seemed to undergo a resurgence and the focus returned to paying respect to all those who had participated and, in particular, those who gave their lives.
My wife is Thai but, every ANZAC Day, whether I'm there or not, she'll drag our daughters out of bed to attend the Dawn Service. Last year I was here in Miri, Sarawak, and there was no service held, but 2004 I attended the one in Kuala Lumpur and there were families from all over the World, standing in the pre-dawn dark at the Military Annex of the Cheras Cemetary. It was a great experience. It is very difficult not to be moved by such things.
What are your respective Remembrance / Memorial Days like? Do they hold the same value in society as they did when you were young (assuming that you are all 'old' now)? Do you think that kids now know who fought who during WW2, or is it fading into the background?

Regardless of anyone's feelings about war,its impossible to not be touched by so many lives needlessly lost.The older I get,the sadder I become about it.
I've been reading what some of the old veterans have to say as they fade away and not one has said"It was great..let's
do it again."

"War never solves anything.It causes a lot of misery and death and a lot of anxiety."
Charlie Mance,WWl veteran aged 100 in 2000.Served 1000 days in european campaigns including the somme,the hindenburg line and montbrehain.Enlisted at age 16.

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07-01.-2006, 02:24 PM

#138

stevebaby

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

How so? We supplied Britain with supplies and war material. We supplied Britain with food and necessities to survive. Without the US the Brits could only sit on their island and watch the Germans run continental europe. Sure they could have made some bombing runs. They in no way shape or form could have mounted an invasion of europe on their own.

Australia,new zealand and south africa made enormous contributions to britain's food supplies by convoy around the cape of good hope.
The outcome in europe was decided when hitler failed to break the brits in the battle of britain.German air power never recovered and without it the germans had no hope of invading britain and they abandoned their invasion plans.Rommel visited the eastern front (I think in 1942,not sure) and observed russian POWs being marched back from the front. They found a dead horse lying in a muddy ditch which they ripped apart with their bare hands and ate raw,then drank the water that it had been lying in.Rommel said later that this was the moment when he realised that germany could never win the war.
The us contribution undoubtedly shortened the war in europe and prevented further loss of life but I don't think it changed the eventual outcome.
Like napoleon before him,hitler conquered europe.Fortunately he also duplicated napoleon's blunders.When napoleon was defeated europe returned to its separate national identities and eventually the same thing happened when hitler was defeated and would probably have also happened if the russians had pushed all the way to the english channel.

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07-01.-2006, 03:00 PM

#139

EoinC

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevebaby

...Like napoleon before him,hitler conquered europe.Fortunately he also duplicated napoleon's blunders.When napoleon was defeated europe returned to its separate national identities and eventually the same thing happened when hitler was defeated and would probably have also happened if the russians had pushed all the way to the english channel.

One of the problems associated with Empire-building is that you end up with something very big - difficult to defend externally and difficult to control internally. Empires tend to grow until they reach that critical mass. Then the air drops out of them faster than it was originally pumped in. They are doomed to failure, usually with a large amount of carnage along the way.
Unfortunately, human nature has it that, whenever the right wind prevails, someone will take another shot at being Caesar.

07-01.-2006, 03:46 PM

#140

stevebaby

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by EoinC

"When will they ever learn?
when will they ever learn?"

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08-01.-2006, 01:41 AM

#141

limerickman

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder

Didn't say that, but the US did play a huge role in it.

We can discuss that when you talk about Sean Russell and Eion O'Duffy. You remember he was the one who died coming back to Ireland on a Nazi u-boat.
The same guy the Irish erected a statue of in Dublin. What was he doing in Berlin? Or your PM and president that both signed the condolence book after hearing of Hitler's death. Or how the IRA was trying to work with the Nazis. Does that Kathleen Plan sound familiar to you?
If you want to criticize other countries I suggest you be prepared to have your own country's activities talked about.

I haven't criticised the role of other countries in WW2 - I have criticised YOUR claims as to the extent of the USA role in WW2.
I have criticised YOUR denegration of the other Allies role in WW2.
I have criticised YOUR claim that the USA's role in WW2 preceeds the role
of the other Allies.
That's what I am criticising.

You retracted your claims as to the USA role in the Pacific in WW2, after several members here pointed out to you the absurdity of your claims on behalf of your country in WW2.

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08-01.-2006, 02:01 AM

#142

limerickman

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevebaby

What about the activities of the Bund in the us?
Just to keep everything balanced,oswald mosley,vichy france,the ustasha,quislings,franco ad infinitum.At least ireland wasn't a party to any alliances and the irish government could reasonably be expected to act in the best interests of its citizens.Entry into WWll would have exposed them to enormous risk as they had virtually no navy or air force and very few anti aircraft defences.They would have been extremely vulnerable to u boat attack.Obviously they acted on the principle that "My enemy's enemy is my friend" as many other governments have done throughout history.

Steve,

I disagree with the view that our goverment took to remain neutral but I can understand why it chose to do so.

As you point out, we had nothing - no aircraft, no munitions, nothing to offer
in a fight.
We had also just come out of a war in 1916 (Easter Rising) against the British.
Another war of independence against the British 1919-1921.
We had ongoing conflict between Northern ireland and the Republic (early 1920's).

Internally, we had civil war in our country between 1922-1923 where families literally split over the decision between accepting a 26 country (Republic)
or a 32 country (All ireland).
The civil war in Ireland cost many lives and literally split the country in half.
So given this - given all this strife our country couldn't have contributed anything as a nation to any allied action.

Given that. Given all that strife. Given that Britian rightly or wrongly, were centrally involved in events between 1916-1921, I think that it is incredible that 150,000 Irish men joined the British Army to fight in WW2 given the strife
in the immediately prior years and given that there was a view that to support the British was treasonous in many sections of Irish society at that time.

08-01.-2006, 02:07 AM

#143

limerickman

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredC

Burma was dreadful.
War is dreadful but the campaign if the Far East seems to have been particularly cruel and vicious.

And to compond that, I know that a lot of (European) veterans of the campaign in the Far East, feel that the sacrifice of them and their collegues has never been accorded the same profile as those that fought in Europe.

08-01.-2006, 02:30 AM

#144

limerickman

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by EoinC

The rememberance of WW1 and WW2 is a very tricky issue in our country.

First of all, there seems to be have been a collective amnesia with regard to WW1 and WW2 by our political leaders until 1990's.
Prior to then, there was very very little discussion regarding WW1 and WW2.
The view in the Republic was that WW1 and WW2 were due to imperialism and
given that Imperialism equated automatically with Britain, no official recognition of WW1 and/or WW2 could take place.
The perception was that society somehow regarded any Irish person who fought in WW1 and/or WW2 were somehow not Irish.
In fact, I know that one member of my family who enlisted with the British Army in 1940 was threatened by one of his inlaws, who happened to be a
Republican, with treason (Old IRA - 1916 decorated veteran).
So that gives you some of what Irish society was like in those times.

In the 1990's official recognition of the men who fought in both world wars slowly started to come about.
War memorials in November were seen to have wreathes : our President began to attend services of rememberance.
Veterans of WW2 were given official placings at national rememberance days
recalling all men who served with the UN and our national army.
Gradually the story of those men who fought and died in both world wars
began to be told and began to get official recognition.

But between 1922-1990, there was no official recognition of same, I am
ashamed to say.

To give you one example : this is completely off topic.
Ernest Shackleton's antarctic expedition when he conquered the Antarctic in
1915.
Among his crew he had a guy called Tom Crean, an Irish guy who served with the Royal Navy and who was widely decorated.
Crean returned to Ireland and lived in his native County Kerry for many years.
No one knew his history - no one knew that he was was central to the success of Shackletons expedition. No one knew the magnificent story that was his.

He could never "go public" because by merely serving with the RN, he would have been viewed in certain quarters as a traitor.
Google the name Tom Crean and you'll see his story.
This might illustrate the dichotomy that existed in the perception of society
in our country.

08-01.-2006, 02:37 AM

#145

limerickman

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by EoinC

The BBC ran a fascinating series of programs last November on the surviving WW1 vets telling their stories of trenchwarfare in Europe.
It was humbling to hear their stories and how the image of going off to war was depicted by the political classes at that time.
Entire villages throughout Britain enlisted groups of youngmen to fight and how many of them were literally wiped out.
It was shocking to hear it - even now nearly 90 years later.

The recent movie Merry Christmas (Joyeaux Noel) is very good.
I went to see it two weeks ago and it tells the story of how both sides called a ceasfire on 24th December 1914 and how both sides brought some sense of normalcy to what was hell.
Poetic licence is taken in that movie but the underlying message is clear : War is ultimately fruitless.
I recommend you see the movie if you can.

08-01.-2006, 04:20 AM

#146

Colorado Ryder

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

As you point out, we had nothing - no aircraft, no munitions, nothing to offer in a fight.

Ireland could have offered her ports and airfields to Allied forces to protect the convoys coming from the US. That would have made protecting the convoys easier and saved lives.

08-01.-2006, 04:28 AM

#147

Colorado Ryder

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevebaby

The outcome in europe was decided when hitler failed to break the brits in the battle of britain.

The outcome was decided on June 21, 1941. Only no one knew it at the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevebaby

would probably have also happened if the russians had pushed all the way to the english channel.

Only all the western european countries would have had communist regimes installed. Not much of a liberation.

08-01.-2006, 10:30 AM

#148

EoinC

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

...To give you one example : this is completely off topic.
Ernest Shackleton's antarctic expedition when he conquered the Antarctic in
1915.
Among his crew he had a guy called Tom Crean, an Irish guy who served with the Royal Navy and who was widely decorated.
Crean returned to Ireland and lived in his native County Kerry for many years.
No one knew his history - no one knew that he was was central to the success of Shackletons expedition. No one knew the magnificent story that was his...

Interesting stuff, Lim. I'll check it out. Australia had it's own 'traitor' - Wilfred Burchett. His writings (and those written about him)make for interesting reading. He was over in Germany in the late 1930's and witnessed the build-up. He wrote to the British papers, concerned at the evident militarisation and the rapidly changing attitude prevailing in German society. He was largely ignored, but it made him turn to journalism. He reported from many places during WW2 (Burma, China and the Pacific) and was the first Westerner to get into Hiroshima, Japan after the dropping of the A-bomb (he arrived incognito by train from Tokyo on the day that the surrender was signed on the USS Missouri.
He reported the Korean War from behind the North Korean Lines and reported the Vietnam War from the North. He was on speaking terms with Ho Chi Minh, and with Henry Kissinger. He definitely made some mistakes throughout his life, but he also got hung out to dry on accusations that were founded on dubious grounds. Aside from any judgement of him, he led a hell of a bizarre life, making a habit of being on the 'wrong' side in a multitude of conflicts.
The Australian Government at one stage tagged him as Public Enemy No.1 (and David Bradbury made a documentary film about him, using that title).

08-01.-2006, 10:44 AM

#149

EoinC

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

...this is completely off topic.
Ernest Shackleton's antarctic expedition when he conquered the Antarctic in
1915...

Sticking tenuously to the off-topic heading, Shackleton was a helluva hand. Unfortunately his recognition in Britain was overshadowed by their chosen One, Scott. A company I used to work with has done (and continues to do) a lot of work down in Antarctica. On one campaign down there that a mate was on, they were working out on the sea-ice and spotted something gleaming in a glacier that was carving. They went and checked it out and it turned out to be one of Scott's food dumps from his fatal 1912 expedition, that had got caught up in the glacier and made its way to the coast.
They cut out what they could and the find was amazing. There was (if I recall correctly) pemmican, chocolate, tinned sardines and lard / oil. They actually ate some of the food and it was still OK. When they reported it to the Antarctic Historical Society (I think that's what it's called), they (the Society) basically told them that they were full of shite and that such a dump didn't exist.
At home I have one of the pemmican cans, still with its paper label, and one of the sardine tins.
We apologise for the interruption and now return you to your regular programming - "The impending impeachment..."

09-01.-2006, 02:29 AM

#150

limerickman

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Re: Bush/Cheney have disgraced their office; they should resign

Quote:

Originally Posted by EoinC

Hey, that is some momento to have Eoin.

Scott's journey is epic (Tom Crean was part of that expedition - in fact he was the first person to retrieve Scott's body on that ill-fated journey).
And I agree with you, Scott does overshadow Shackleton's reputation.
(Shackleton was part of Scott's earlier attempt to reach the South Pole, prior to the one he - Scott - died on).

I am very interested in that period of history and I have read widely about the likes of Mallory and Irvine, Shackleton and Scott.
They were all true pioneers.

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