Tookie Williams & the death penalty

Chance3290

Well, that leaves me out.

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stevebaby

Try googling "mako-Paedophile Killer Walks Free"

The shootings took place in sydney,australia in 1995. The detective resigned from the police force before his trial but at the time of the alleged offences he was a serving officer.His acquittal aroused considerable controversy,not because of any concern for the victim of the shooting but because it established a very dangerous precedent in law.
My opinion is that he should probably have been acquitted on the grounds of temporary insanity but the jury thought otherwise
The jury verdict was reported in the sydney morning herald,2nd August 1997.
Your apology will be accepted.

BTW,Its not my arse,its a reflection on your computer screen.

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bastard

Chance3290

Took you long enough to find one, didn't it?

I do know that you can get away with killing a bus load of orphaned nuns, IF you can articulate your reasons for doing so. (Look at the O.J. trial) BUT in every jurisdiction that I know, you are required to use what is referred to as the 'Three Way Test.'
The person you are using deadly force against another must have:
Ability-A weapon
Opportunity-In proximity to use that weapon
Jeopardy-The person must make some overt act indicating he is going to use the weapon.

Your story sounds like it had an emotional verdict. While I'm all for killing child molesters, if this jury had been in a US jurisdiction that uses the three way test, the judge would have been forced to throw out the verdict. But then again, Judge Ito should have thrown out the verdict in the O.J. case. And we know how that one ended. "Your Honor, we the jury find the murderer, not guilty."

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limerickman

Citing the OJ Simpson case doesn't help to instill any confidence in the US judicial system.
In fact citing OJ re-enforces the case that the "system" can be and is wrong.

I have absolutely no doubt that innocent people have been executed in the USA and therefore even one death of one innocent person is far too high a price.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

stevebaby

3 minutes.
If the judge can throw out a verdict of a jury under us law(and I know that this is not possible) what is the reason for having a jury?
The only verdict that counts is either "guilty" or "not guilty" and the jury is not required to state any further reason,unless they choose to do so.
You are quite correct in saying that this was an "emotional" verdict.Self defence also covers the defence of others who may be at risk.In this case,the jury chose to stretch the law to its very limits but in doing so they established a very dangerous precedent.
Somewhere,sometime,this verdict is going to cause a miscarriage of justice.Someone will commit a murder and use this case to justify the fact that they chose to take it upon themselves to become judge,jury and executioner.When that happens the law ceases to have any meaning.I'm always wary of placing too much power in the hands of judges.I don't believe that the napoleonic system (which was the basis of the german legal system under the nazis) is necessarily the best,nor do I believe that the jury system is perfect. I don't believe that a perfect legal system will ever exist. I remember this case well and I was astonished by the verdict.I was also astonished by the fact that lt. william calley's punishment (after eye witness testimony that he had personally shot a child in the head) amounted to a week in jail and three weeks confined to barracks with his girlfriend.

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bastard

Chance3290

Your turn to google. Try "Judges setting aside verdicts." You'll then see that you don't know as much as US law and you think.

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Chance3290

I do apologize. I knew mentioning O.J. was a mistake, but I wasn't strong enought to stop myself from hitting the submit button.

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stevebaby

The State of California v.Simpson was also a bad verdict.Bad verdicts will always occur under the jury system.They will aso occur under the napoleonic system.
How do you undo a bad verdict when the death penalty applies?I'll anticipate the argument that williams had 20 years to put his case.The us has aroused argument about habeas corpus after 700 years in the cases of the prisoners at guantanamo bay.As I have said before the underlying principle of all common law legal systems is that it is better for 100 felons to walk free than one innocent person to be convicted.If anyone can come up with a solution, every lawyer in the world would love to hear it.

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jhuskey

It's not the system Lim,it is human judgement that is flawed, and from what I know most legal systems are open to manipulation and are no better and some worse.
A light system that is installed at an intersection should work perfectly to eliminate accidents, except they don't because humans do not operate with consistence and good judgement.

To reform the systems of the world I suggest that we begin by legalizing prostitution. Where we go from there I know not ,but it is a good start.

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stevebaby

Where a trial has proceeded according to law ,a judge cannot set aside a jury verdict.When legal "faults" occur in a trial,then technically the trial has either not occurred or has only proceeded in part.
I noted that after searching about 10 pages that every entry pertained to us courts.In many us jurisdictions judges are elected and therefore under some pressure to deliver popular verdicts.Their decisions are subject to appeal.It would be more relevant if you could show statistics on the number of cases where jury verdicts were set aside and then later reversed by higher courts.
In practice it rarely occurs.The simpson case is a glaring example.

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limerickman

Don't get me wrong - I think all country's legal systems are flawed.
I wasn't singling out the USA capital punishment - I was focussing on the principle of capital punishment throughout the world.
Human error can ocur.

Innocent people in my country were executed too.

And you're right, it's human fallibility that is to blame.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

There probably isn't a solution Steve but I think we're both on the same side of this issue ie capital punishment is wrong.

I can well understand the reasons for victims wanting to exact revenge.
The most heinous of crimes are committed.
But if the penalty of capital punishment is on the books, I have no doubt that
some poor innocent bugger will be tried convicted and executed.

The law and the legal system must be seen to be beyond any reproach.
That is a very high standard.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

jhuskey

Yes we agree Lim and I do not know an answer, as humans will continue to make mistakes.

As to set aside verdicts, a judge canon his own, or be asked to set aside a verdict on many points.
Questionable acts by attorneys,prosecutors,judges.
Unprecidented awards. Improper procedings or rule violations.
Questionable evidence or lack of, but I have to deal with lawyers everyday so you guys debate on.

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Chance3290

Of course they've been in US courts. I've only talked about US law. You're the one talking about common law this, and the laws of Outer Slobolia say that.
And you said "a judge cannot set aside a jury verdict." You are wrong and obviously don't know as much about US law and you think. So there .

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