Tookie Williams & the death penalty

stevebaby

Not that ann coulter is biased in any way of course.

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stevebaby

Yep.Poor black people go to the bad ones. Rich white people go to the good ones.

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stevebaby

I have.

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stevebaby

I bet they were envious.They only had Zyklon B.

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stevebaby

The last time I looked,more than 70 people had been freed from death row by DNA evidence and there are probably more by now.They all received fair trials of course.Noone will ever know how many innocent people have been executed for crimes they could not have committed.That alone should be enough reason to abolish the death penalty.
I have known four people who were charged with murder.
1.Bob's 2 year old child was left alone in a bathtub with 6ins of water in it,for about 20 mins.The child managed to turn the tap on,fill the bath to a higher level and she subsequently drowned.When questioned by the police (an hour after the child had died) he reacted angrily and told the police to f... off. That and the fact that he had long hair were enough for the investigating officers to decide that a 2 year old child did not have the strength to turn on the tap and he was charged with murder.He spent 18 months in prison on remand before he was acquitted.It was a very hard 18 months because of the offence he was charged with.Fortunately his parents could afford a decent defence.Had he been poor and black it would probably been a different story.
While there was no death penalty involved there may as well have been. He committed suicide a few years later.
2. Three brothers were water-skiing when one of them fell and the other 2 turned the boat around to pick him up.Unfortunately they ran over him and killed him and despite the lack of motive they were charged with his murder.They also were acquitted.Fortunately their parents could afford a good defence and they were acquitted.It cost their parents their marriage,their house,their business and their health.
Had they been poor and black and living in a jurisdiction with the death penalty it would have been a different story.
The plea bargaining process in the us has caused innocent people to plead guilty to lesser charges simply to avoid the death penalty.
4. Two friends were at a party when they had a fight about a girl.They were in the kitchen.One picked up a kitchen knife and threatened the other who took the knife from him and stabbed him.He was charged with murder,convicted and served 8 years.Eventually he was released after appealing the case on the grounds of self defence.He was poor and black.Had he lived in a jurisdiction with the death penalty he would have been executed.
It isn't just the moral issue of the state killing people.How many people would have pleaded guilty to a manslaughter charge,of which they were innocent,just to escape the risk of being executed?

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MountainPro

There IS as reason why people who are sentenced to death are placed on death row for years. It is to give a sense of justice being done. People want to see others rot in jail first before being executed.

If a person murders another and is then murdered himself by the state in a prompt manner it will be just like a killing spree. There has to be a pause because to some people death is not a punishment. If you are Christian its seen as the beginning, not the end.

I find it very strange that in a predominantly Christian country, most people condone the taking of a life despite the fact that the Bible forbids it.

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Chance3290

Can you tell us where and when these stories of yours occurred?

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Chance3290

I'm sure there are cases of innocent people being executed, there are also hundreds of cases of people being let loose and killing again.
The pause before the sentence is carried out is to allow the convicted to go through the appeals process.
Christians believe in Heaven and Hell. Dying after leading a good life leads you to Heaven. Dying after you start a vicious robbing, raping, murdering drug gang will lead you to Hell.
And the Bible never forbad killing, in fact the Bible is full of killing.
The Bible forbad murder. The Commandment is actually; "Thou Shall Not Murder."

My bottom line is that I'll be against the death penalty when prison is made to be hell. No TV, no weight rooms, etc. Live 23 hours a day in a small cell with very limited human contact.
Prisons will stay filled as long as its not a deterrent to return. If you give prisoners everything they want, they won't want to leave or won't mind getting sent back.

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stevebaby

Not in the us.Between10 and 25 years ago.Is it relevant?

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stevebaby

"No TV,no weight rooms,etc." Is that hell,or guantanamo bay?"23 hours a day in a small cell with very limited human contact". Definitely gitmo.

And that's before they have been tried.

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Chance3290

Yes, since your stories didn't occur in the US, then the US laws would be applicable.
In what country are you charged with murder because you have long hair?
And in your # four story, if someone comes after you with a knife and you take away the knife, you also take away your reason to use deadly force in self-defense.
You said he proved self-defense eight years later, and if he lived with the death penalty, he would have been executed. tookie lived on death row for about 20 years before he was executed.
Of course, these legal opinions are only applicable in the US, apparently not in the land of your stories.

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wolfix

I do not believe in the death penalty because of the defective justice system that we have in this country. I read somewhere that in the US about 10% of the "deaths" in the death penalty system are innocent... And it is wrong to punish one innocent to satisfy societys need for vengence. We do need to use DNA and we also need to question the motive behind prosecuting attorneys.... The system is set up to produce results and profits for the few.
And the liberals on this forum need to examine where the resistence to the death penalty is coming from. It is not the Democratic party. Matter of fact , the Democratic held counties are the ones filling the penal institutions..... It provides jobs. Look at the states where the Democrats have tried to privatize the penal system.....
People have a misconception about the death penalty and the states govenors right to provide clemency. I think it is the state penal board that recommends clemancy to the govenor. I do not think the govenor has the right to step in.

Tookie Williams really offered nothing back to society. His book was "nominated" by "one" individual who was not even knowledgable about who and what Tookie stood for. So , lets see it for what it was. There was strong eveidence that he still had ties to the Crips. The fact he was allowed to live while in prison is proof enough. And at his funeral I believe the Crips had a presence. They do that only for members in good standing.
Jesse Jackson???? That speaks for itself

And a comment on roadhog's experience on the German take on the Tookie situation .......Germans are Germans. Their history shows what the Germans are. There is a very good reason they were called "barbarians" in the past. I come from strong German background and so I have a feel for their thoughts and emotions. There are many who feel Germany is headed for a economic failure..... I don't know. But watch Germany if this happens, and see if the word "barbarian' comes up again.

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Mariusroxana

I know people are considered not guilty of killing in self defense.

Tookie Williams was executed in self defense to protect our society.
How society is guilty of protecting itself?

stevebaby

The us is a common law jurisdiction.The "common law" is just that - it is common to the us,england,canada,trinidad,new zealand,australia,india,ceylon and other countries.Judges in all these countries accept arguments based on precedent established in other common law jurisdictions.The best known example is "habeas corpus" which was established in england but applies to all the above jurisdictions.
Bob was charged with murder because the police officer investigating took a dislike to him based on his appearance and attitude.Black people in the us (and other countries) are more likely to be charged with an offence if the police officer is white.It is not unusual for police officers to charge someone with an offence,knowing them to be innocent,just to cause inconvenience to them and get revenge for something like an insult.This is why lawyers advise clients to be polite to the police,even though there is no legal requirement to do so.Police everywhere have common values and attitudes and are usually unsympathetic to those who do not share those values.
If,having disarmed an attacker,someone has reasonable cause to believe that a further attack is imminent,then that person is entitled to use deadly force to defend themselves.In this case,the person charged was being slammed headfirst into a cupboard and other knives were lying nearby.The legal argument was about the likelihood of death resulting from the continued attack.A few years ago a detective discovered that 2 of his child relatives were being abused .the alleged offender was arrested,charged and bailed.the detective went to the alleged offender's house and shot him dead.He was subsequently acquitted on the grounds of self defence.
The death penalty was abolished 8 years before this happened.The procedure then was for any appeal to be heard within weeks of the verdict and if unsuccessful,the death sentence was carried out immediately.A number have been posthumously pardoned since then,which is not much consolation.Had the death penalty been in place then my acquaintance would have been executed and would have been able to get a retrial,a process which took 8 years of determined lobbying by a lawyer acting pro bono.
Without having any particular sympathy for williams he very obviously received 2 sentences for his crimes,the first being the 20 years on death row and the second being the actual execution.

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