Tookie Williams & the death penalty

DiabloScott

I think it's the appropriate punishment for heinous acts of murder. I don't care if it's a deterrant or not. Life without parole is not a deterrant but we're not talking about getting rid of that.

It should be administered as fairly and quickly as possible.

An innocent man in jail for life has had almost as much injustice as an innocent man executed.

Tookie didn't get multiple lethal injections - they just had difficulty getting the needle in his arm.

I'm a pretty liberal guy politically and socially - this is one area where I disagree with my otherwise like-minded friends.

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Chance3290

This kind of logic has been shown to hurt, rather than help opposition to the death penalty.
As far as Gacy is concerned, he should have been given life in general population. Those convicts, the ones we want to help protect and rehabilitate, their 'code' would have Gacy dead and stuffed within 24 hours of his entry. But, that would have been OK, because they don't represent the system. Its OK if 'they' kill, but 'we' can't because we should know better. But, aren't they part of us?

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roadhog

Pretty much my point. I agree with you. A clown in my eyes, although to his credit he has occasionally accomplished something (POW situation in Balkans), although I believe his motives to be completely disingenuous. I'll be waiting to see him in Mississippi - and that M*A*S*H star as well, whatever his name is.

Dr.Hairybiker

[QUOTE=Chance3290]For those who think life without parole is a punishment for some people, you are wrong.
Most US prison today have sex, drugs, three hots and a cot, whatever else you need and whatever else you wanted on the outside.
If some rich guy murders someone, then life in prison might be a good punishment. But for someone who grows up in poverty, and lives off government assistance all his life...life in prison is just about the same as life on the street.
And NO, Dondare, prisons are not hell. If they were, then life w/o parole would be appropriate.
I won't mourn tookie. The Crips have been responsible for murder, rape, robbery, drug usage, etc. His victim count is in the thousands.
I can't say if the death penalty is a deterrent or not. But I do agree that if you're going to use it, don't wait 20+ years. Use the appeals process and when that's done. Kill them.

1. Not all prisons are created equal. Not even close. One prison might be tolerable for one certain individual, and that same person might not last 1 day in another prison, or even in a different part of the same prison. Trust me, some prisons are worse than what you can imagine hell is. And some prisons are not.

Carrera

Evidence suggests it doesn't prevent crime. The U.S. has higher crime than other countries that don't have the death penalty.
Also, execution is pre-mediated murder. Criminal murder may not be premeditated.

roadhog

Gonna have to provide more detailed analysis than that to convince anybody of anything. People who rob a bank know that they aren't subject to death penalty, so of course it has no deterrent on bank robbers (who don't kill). Same for hundreds of other crime categories. Also, many other things play into crime rates as well, not ONLY the deterrent of the punishment.

jhuskey

Also, execution is pre-mediated murder. Criminal murder may not be premeditated.[/QUOTE]

I am curious under what laws, standards or moral values you use to arrive at this conclusion.
What is the accepted definition of murder?

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DiabloScott

Killing someone is always classified legally as homocide.

The legal definition of murder includes intent to kill - premeditated or not, the intent was to kill the person. Capital punishment in USA is only imposed on convictions of multiple counts of murder, or in some cases murder of a police officer or other official.

Manslaughter is unintentional murder but may include intent to do great harm. Justifiable homocide would include self-defense or defense of another person.

I think it a much bigger tragedy that our prisons are filled with non-violent drug offenders than that we execute extremely violent subhuman scum.

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Dondare

Prevents reoffending.

Chance3290

Quite true. I can't think of one crime committed after someone has been executed. Now, I could be wrong.

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Carrera

Crime in the U.S. is far higher than in Europe. The death penalty hasn't prevented such high levels of crime. Moreoever, crime in some U.S. states is unacceptable to the point there is a problem.
Look at crime in Japan. It's very low. But the U.S. has had more nutty serial killers than nearly anywhere else.
The death penalty has made little difference and crime is even higher in capital punishment states.
Also, murder is wrong and murder is murder. I would never take part in the apparently legal murder of another individual (i.e. in a jury or as a governer) and set myself up as judge and jury. It goes against my beliefs (not being religious).
I do take the point there are evil people out there who can cause untold misery to the victim. If your father, mother or brother was a victim of such a crime, it's human nature you would want to take revenge.
But really nobody has the right to decide who lives or dies. Violent killers should be isolated from society instead to ensure the safety of other people.

DiabloScott

If we could change something about the death penalty (whatever it may be) that would MAKE it a deterrent - you still wouldn't be in favor of it, would you? So why do you keep bringing up the deterrent issue?

And unless your contention is that the death penalty actually increases the crime rate then you don't have any point at all.

It's a penalty, it's the appropriate punishment. I feel more sorry for the rats I kill in my shed than vermin like Tookie Williams.

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roadhog

Again, citing a higher crime rate overall doesn't speak to the death penalty issue per say, and many social issues play into crime rate, not just the deterence.


What level of crime is considered "not a problem"? My guess is zero. Which crime is "acceptable"? Which states have you been dodging bullets in lately? I've lived in 8 states so far for extended periods, and I've always felt very safe. Of course there are areas of cities to avoid, but I felt that way when I lived in Bavaria, Germany as well.

MountainPro

like i said, i dont give a shit about this case or what he did or if he was reformed. Killing people is wrong. It is morally wrong and if you are religious.... 'Thou shalt not kill'. Christ preached forgiveness.
Two wrongs dont make a right. His victims are still dead and the death sentence didnt deter him.
Face facts, the death sentence as a form of punishment doesnt work.

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