Will Israel Strike First?

limerickman

Let's clarify the issue to the Holocaust - 6m Jewish people were killed.
No one here ever denied.

There were millions of Christians killed by the Nazi's.




My issue is to the veracity of the Jewish claim to land that belonged to Palestine up to 1948.

The Jewish claim to that land is in my opinion unethical : the Jewish people were never in control of that land for the past 3,000 years.
I have already covered the history of that particular piece of territory.
So to claim - as you have repeatedly claimed - that the Jewish people ought to get priority to what is Jerusalem - is hitorically incorrect.
The Jewish people were never in control of that land and for you to suggest otherwise is a distortion of history.

I acknowledge that Jerusalem did have a substantial Jewish population.
In fact under caliphate, Jewish people (and Christian people) were allowed to live and travel to, Jerusalem.

So the creation of Israel in 1948 - and the forcible removal of the Palestinians - cannot be justified in any way.
And the further attempt by Israel to annexe East Jerusalem in 1967 componded the unethnicity of 1948.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Carrera

Lim, Jewish history and Jewish religion are irreversibly connected with regard to the Middle East. Judaism as a religion is possibly the world's most ancient faith system. Islam, on the other hand, is incredibly young, even by Christian standards. In fact, Islam isn't what we might call a singular religion as it borrowed massively from the Jewish Torah and adopted Jewish prophets.
If you ever read the Torah at school, it is clear the disputed territories are seen by all Jews as part of their birthright. The Torah isn't just a religious text but it's also viewed by archeologists and academics as valid. It even led to the confirmation of the Hitite nation.
The Jews may have been displaced from their land throughout history via war or invasion but try telling that to the East Germans. Or are we to argue that since East Berlin was captured by the Red Army in WW2, the East Germans should foresake their right to their own land?
So, I repeat my argument: Israel chose to dispute it's right to the land we are discussing and re-establish a country called Israel. They went to war against the Arab States and won that conflict. The Arabs lost.
Myself I choose to support Israel in its struggle for valid reasons. Jews have never been a threat to this country while Arab immigrants have been causing problems since they were allowed within the borders of Europe. Not all of them, of course, but I'm speaking as a whole.
After witnessing the sights of Bali, Madrid, London, 9/11 and now the riots in France and the gunning down of police officers in this country, I think I'd rather witness mass Jewish immigration as an alternative to what is taking place. Anyone who lost a leg in any of these atrocities would probably sympathise with the position of the Israelis (who realise you're not going to defeat these people by Booger-style politcal correctness )

limerickman

...and that's the problem.
The Jewish people invoke a book to make a claim about territory.
I don't want to disparage the texts but a book has no legal standing in this instance.
If this was the case, then Hitlers claim to have Germany as a pure Teutonic
nation would have been validated, by the texts about the Volk etc.

This talk of birthright - birthright is to the country where you are born : not
to an ideal.





The Jewish people have been on the receiving end - there's no doubt.
But you cannot state that because of this - they ought to have their own land.
My concern would be "why have they been on the receiving end" ?

The East German analogy is what happened in palestine and invading force forcibly took control of territory that didn't belong to them.
The majority of the population making up Israel never had roots in that territory prior to 1948.
Exactly like the Red Army and Berlin.





And this is where we part company - because I cannot support what happened in 1948.
It was an unethical decision to allow people to be placed in a territory to which they had no connection.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Carrera

"Israel's rights are not perfect or exclusive, but they are certainly strong enough so that it does not come to the table as a "thief of Palestinian land." The Palestinians' claims may be strong enough to justify giving them some of the land they want. But since the Palestinians have never been rulers of the land, it could not have been stolen from them. Palestinians, therefore, are claimants, not the victims of theft. Their behavior should be judged as the acts of a claimant seeking land to which he thinks he is entitled, not as the acts of a dispossessed owner.
The disputed land, we should remember, became available in 1920 when its former sovereign, the defeated Ottoman Empire, was removed. The League of Nations heard the dispute between the Jews, represented by the Balfour Declaration of Great Britain, and the Arabs living in the land, represented by other Arab countries. Aware that the Jews had ruled the land in ancient times, had no other homeland, and were displacing no existing state, the League decided that the Jewish people should be invited to settle the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea as its homeland. The Arabs, including the Palestinians, never accepted this decision - which has never been rescinded.
Some argue that the League of Nations decision was a "colonial" decision and should not stand against the right of self-determination. But the League decision was the binding legal authority in 1922 and all Jews who came to the land after that date to build a state came on the basis of that authority. And the many Arabs who moved to the land after 1922 came knowing that it had been legally designated as the future Jewish homeland. While this may not be the end of the story it is an essential beginning."
Quoted from Max Singer.

Carrera

"My concern would be "why have they been on the receiving end" ?"

Simple question. The Jews are a very religious people who tend to follow their own customs amongst themselves. The fact Jewish religion teaches the gentiles are somehow different being Jewish possibly causes others to regard them with suspicion.
In ancient times, the Jews were difficult to deal with since they rioted often and awaited their own Messiah.
But today, most of the world's problems are being caused by extremist moslems not Jews. I bnelieve there will come a point where immigration to Europe from Middle Eastern Arab States reaches such a point, we will inevitably be destabilised or forced to govern ourselves on the basis of religion.
It is easy to support extremist moslems from the comforts of our own home when they blow up a bus in Telaviv. Few people realise the current fate of Israelis will soon be the fate of the Brits and the French on a daily basis, but I doubt the Brits of French have the moral vigour to endure much of a fight.
The riots in France and bombings in London and Spain are only the beginning of what will soon be to come. I believe time will prove me right.

darkboong

No doubt you will want them integrated or deported like the Arabs and Muslims you hate so much Crappy.



I don't find it possible to support extremists full stop, regardless of their cause. I can't speak for FredC or Lim, but from what I've seen them write I don't think they do either.

I know you support extremists in the form of Zionists ethnically cleansing millions of Palestinians though.

Carrera

Who says I hate moslems? I never said that.
My complaint is (and always has been) that there are forces at work within this country and Europe with the aim of destroying democracy, freedom of expression and womens' rights and equalities. It's a kind of ideology inspired by extremist Islam and ultra liberal European policy.
If it were simply a case of thousands of moderate moslems entering the country as immigrants and not making any attempt to overturn our value system, I'd be far less antagonistic. But come on, guys, am I really being so intolerant when you look at the provocation? To cite a few examples:
(1) Mullahs preaching openly in mosques calling for Britain to become an Islamic State.
(2) Schools being forced to change uniform rules and send girls to class clothed in burkhas to prevent public disorder.
(3) Gang fights between groups of Kurdish immigrants and Pakistani men.
(4) Dozens of chemicals, bomb kits and Jihad manuals found in urban centres.
(5) The Madrid and London bombings coupled with current instability in France.
I know personally of many educated, peaceful moslems who work hard as doctors and only wish to live peacefully as immigrants. Such people do not bother me in the slightest. It is only the extremists and crazy mullahs (egged on by a radical left-ling elite) that get right up my hooter. Mine is only a call for common sense in what now appears to be something of a madhouse.

darkboong

I say it. I really don't care much for your rabid conspiracy theories, they stink just as bad as the conspiracy theories that centre on Jewish world domination.

Carrera

"I don't find it possible to support extremists full stop, regardless of their cause. I can't speak for FredC or Lim, but from what I've seen them write I don't think they do either."

Lim doesn't strike me as extremist. He's obviously thought his views through and that's the way it is. I do agree with Lim totally on the Iraq War issue as I always believed it was an unjust war, brought about by a president who sought to exploit the fears of 9/11 and scapegoat the Iraqi people.
I don't agree with Lim over Israel, though, but admittedly he offers reasoned argument based on his own readings and discussions. Guess we just don't agree. But Lim is always polite as a general rule.
Fred kind of worries me more. He has this tendency to break forth into soviet style slogans when under duress such as, "Infidel, Zionist Imperialist miscreants will be defeated!"
During normal discourse, he's rational but pressure of argument tends to tip him over the edges into these "slogans" he broadcasts every so often.

Carrera

Strange as it may seem to you, my views are very similar to Muhammad Ali's at the time he was a devout moslem.
Both myself and Ali don't believe in forced integration. We believe in people living together of their own accord not by force.
The Iraqi people did not ask for U.S. forces to come into their country and the truth is, those armed forces are not wanted and should leave. Myself, I don't want Iraq's oil or any natural resource that belongs to another people. Neither do I have any quarrel with any Iraqi or support meddling in their affairs.
Likewise, nobody asked Europeans whether they wanted to be tranformed into multicultural societies and follow a U.S. model of development. It was forced on people by politicians. People were terrorised and bullied into accepting the process and fined or ridiculed if they disagreed.
It's not that I don't believe all people can live together in peace (Jews, seculars, Christians and Moslems). What I do believe is nobody has a right to force their ideals on others and involve whole societies in their crazy social experimentation programs.
What people want at the end of the day is jobs, security and prosperity. They want this here and in Iraq too.

Carrera

"I don’t believe in forced integration. I’m not going to force myself into anybody’s house… I love white people. I like my own people. They can live together without infringing on each other. We don't think one people should force its culture upon another." Muhammad Ali

"Animals in the jungle flock together. Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Chinese and Japanese all live better if they are together." Muhammad Ali

"I don't like hot Mexican food and I would be unhappy if somebody made me eat it. At the same time, you may not like what I like--turnip greens and hominy grits, or country music. If you don't like it you shouldn't have to accept it." Muhammad Ali

FredC

Your assumption is libellous in law, and defamatory.
In quotes above you are wrong on all counts. I have never used the word Infidel nor Zionist Imperialist miscreants will be defeated. If you had any money, I'd get my Carole who is a working barrister to have you up in the Royal Courts of Justice Queens Bench Division.

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The media is a self perpetuating publicity stunt.

limerickman

For the record, I can well understand the world wanting to defend the Jewish race following WW2 : but I don't agree that the forced displacement of nearly 1m Palestinians was/is the correct solution to protecting the Jewish people.

I also believe that the Jewish people ought to have integrated in to western society more than they chose to in the past.

As regards your earlier note about the Jewish people being religious : that isn't neither here nor there.

And your final point about Muslims being the cause of terror in the West : I
think that the West has been at best duplicitous and at worst imperialist as regards the Middle East.

It should be noted that Palestine for 9 centuries existed in relative peace.
From 12th century to 1914, Palestine was home to Muslim, Christian and Jew.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

FredC

This is not a geurilla war per se. It revolves and evolves around land stolen from the rightful deedholders who are the Palestinians by the incursors who have given no choice in legal recourse as to the heritage of the prevous rightful owners . There is no ther word for it than grand theft.
In this country, from the Domesday Book onwards, it has, and still is a citizens right at law to make claim to land, and be heard.
I give up with Crappy, and will not be posting further upon his postings, and I hope you lot do the same on this issue.

__________________
The media is a self perpetuating publicity stunt.