Will Israel Strike First?

Carrera

I'm not a specialist on such matters. However, I have articles published on the Roman period and know a lot more about Israel during that period or prior to that. So, I can fully grasp the fact the Jews have been residing in that land for thousands of years (centuries before Islam ever became a world religion, basing itself on aspects of Judaism).
More specifically, I know enough to be sure people such as George Galloway are completely ignorant when they talk about Jerusalem being the "daughter of the Arab World" as he puts it.
The problem is, I get the impression that Boogers and others are simply swallowing the whole lot of propaganda that the Arabs have been churning out with respect to Palestine. They represent the majority view in this country but majority views aren't always the right views.
If you live in a country that's evidently biased towards Arab sentiment, you run the risk of indoctrination. How often does the media in this country ever take a look at things from the Jewish perspective?
When many folks on the forum come out with rhetoric such as "zionist imperialists" I get the impression that indoctrination is very much at play. Reminds me of the way religious cults manage to force an ideology on people who may have good intentions but are open to suggestion.

ptlwp

Israeli's are no more a cult type of people than are French, German, English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, British, Australian, Viet Nam; you get the picture. The Scots wear kilts, for instance, but that does not make them a cult.

Every country stands up for itself in anyway it can, except for Frenchies and Italians, I suppose. The Poles were just plain stupid for not having the Jews in their armies; SNAFU.....Bulgaria was the only country to have the balls to say "FU" to what the Nazi's asked them to do regarding "the final solution".

I think all you folks on the continent have a very bad case of xenophobia, which none of you can own up to. Shame. Divide and conquer, and that ya'll were.

Sorry....

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"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." Sir Edmund Burke

limerickman

I can only speak for myself - but I have read widely about what is going on in Palestine and the history of the Palestine.

You have stated here that the Jewish people occupied Palestine for thousands of years.

The Jewish texts themselves state that the Jewish population was banished from Palestine to Egypt due to famine in 1300 bc.
They then escaped form Egypt (Moses led them) in to the desert.
Joshua in around 1200 bc managed to get the Jewish people back in to Palestine but Palestine was fought over by Assyrians, Chaldeans, Persians.
In 400 bc the Macedonians defeated the reigning power in Palestine - the Persians.
Then the Romans conquered Palestine.

The Roman Empire was converted to Christianity and from about 500 ad to
1150ad, the Saracens (Muslims) and Christians fought over Palestine.
From 1150ad the Islamic Caliphate rules Palestine until 1918.

So the Jewish "claim" to Palestine is at best tenuous : they never had control of Palestine since 1200bc.
None of this is rhethoric : the entire history of who controlled Palestine is there.

The Jewish "claim" to Jerusalem is based on Abraham and his sacrificing his son Issac and the subsequent building of a temple by David in Jerusalem.
The Muslims claim Jerusalem by the fact that Muhammed is said to have arisen to heaven from the site of the Dome of the Rock.
The Christain claim to Jerusalem is based upon the fact that Christ was rejected by the Jews, handed over to the Romans and executed by the Romans in Jerusalem.

It should also be noted that under the Caliphate - the Muslims allowed Jews to live in Jerusalem.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

and, I think you are wrong on this particular topic.

Xenophobia presumes that people oppose another nationality.
Is the Jewish identity that of a nationality ?
or is the Jewish identity that of a religion ?

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

FredC

I think the term used is 'Zionist Zealots' and not one person as ever used the term 'Zionist Imperialists'. You don't even know what a Zionist is, do you?
You're getting right on my tits just lately, with your braindead rhetoric.

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The media is a self perpetuating publicity stunt.

Carrera

Maybe she somehow thought I was refering to Jews as cultish. What I meant, is that current attitudes that people adopt in this country about Israel have been based on Islamic indoctrination, as via a cult.
This is called the victim culture. The Arabs have very successfully managed to convince young Britons that they (the Brits) somehow deserve to pay for their crimes as former imperialists and colonialists. Likewise, the Arabs are painted as victims of Jews and Americans and the west.
In short, the reason the Arab World has stagnated is supposed to have nothing to do with the Arabs own shortcomings or failure to embrace technology e.t.c. It's all the west's fault (so they teach).
Now I basically reject all of this as cult propaganda. I don't opt to take the blame for mistakes made by the colonial powers in the past. These were not policies I would have implicated and there is no reason why I should just be a dumb apologist, so to speak. Neither do I accept I should be bombed on a train or bus as a result of the Iraq war since I never supported that war.
My belief is the Arab World has itself to blame for most of its misfortune. They have been blessed by massive oil resources they could have used to build dynamic economies but they have chosen to go another way. In hundreds of years they have hardly budged forwards. Now they believe Europe should simply accept responsibility for all of this and open up the borders and grant refugee status while we bend over backwards to change our culture, customs and beliefs in case they riot.
The Arab World should be made to understand how and why they failed to develop socially and economically and it should be made pretty clear they themselves bear much of the responsibility (ruling out colonial transgressions, of course). This stuff about victimhood seems to fool a lot of people but it doesn't fool all of us.
If Israel can build a free, democratic society and China and Russia can reform, why can't the Arabs?

darkboong

I would call the bodycount pretty --ing convincing. In Israel alone they have a 4.5:1 Kill-Death ratio, in Iraq the figure is closer to 15:1 (on the most conservative figures).

[RACIST SHORTSIGHTED ZIONIST IMPERIALIST BLATHER SNIPPED]

Carrera

Quote, Little Zionist:
http://www.littlezionist.com/
"Many young people are desperate to display their left-wing credentials; they are anti-war, anti-Zionist, and adorned with multifarious plastic bracelets proclaiming their support for various abused groups. One particular young student, who placed herself in front of me in Galloway’s latest speech in London, managed to leave me with little doubt as to her politics; her ‘Marxism 2004′ t-shirt and ‘Free Palestine’ headband told me all I needed to know. Clearly we need to ensure that supporting Israel is socially acceptable; unfortunately most ’subversive’ left-wing students, are capable of doing little more than following the crowd. Have a look at Melanie’s site."
http://www.melaniephillips.com/arti...ves/000041.html

Carrera

How's about the 3000 victims of 9/11? The 200 civilians dead in the Moscow Nordost hostage crisis, the Madrid bombing, Bali, London and even Beslan?
How many moslem women and children did the Yanks actively target as a point of defined policy? Or do you forget Clinton went into Yugoslavia to prevent moslems being killed by Serbs?
How many poor black refugees in New Orleans were granted asylum by Arab countries? How many poor white trash are claiming welfare in the Arab Middle East?
"When Palestinians’ freedoms have become more important – a cause more worthy of support – than the Israelis’ right to self-defence against suicide bombers, surely some perversion of reasonable thought must have taken place."

darkboong

Yup, I am definitely anti-Zionist and anti-War. There is no place for Ethnic Purity on this planet, it is an Evil concept. I am not young any more though.

Does that make me left-wing ?

limerickman

I have already outlined to you the historical facts concerning Palestine earleir
(read my earlier message).
The Jewish "claim" to what is Palestine is based on events in 1300bc.

What happened since 1300bc isn't indoctrination - it is fact.
The Jewish people lost control of Palestine 3,000 years ago and did not regain control of apart of Plaestine until 1948 (creation of Israel).

So to invoke issues from 3,000 years to support a "claim" about the ownership of a piece of land - land that was out of Jewish control for 3,000 years - makes that claim tenuous, at best.





With respect, I would suggest that it is the Jewish people who continually
allege that they're victims.
Throughout their history they've repeated this calim of victimhood.
Victims of Famine, victims of Persians, victims of Macedonians, victims of Chadeans, victims of Syrians, victims of Romans, victims of Christians, victims of Cruscades, victims of Muslims, victims of the Bolscheviks, victims of Nazi's.




There was relative peace from 14th century to 20 century in the Ottoman empire.
Western (Britain and the USA) only took an interest in the Middle East because of oil (from 1919 onwards).

You forget that it was the West that carved up the map of the Middle East
in 1920.
you forget that it was the West that installed "royal" families in Saudi and Jordan.
You forget that it was the West that drew up sweetheart deals for the oil companies like Royal Dutch Shell and BP guaranteeing commission on every single barrel of oil prooduced from the Middle East.
You forget that it was the oil companies that persuaded Brtain and America to annex land from Iraq (it's 14th province) and call it Kuwait when vast oil reseerves were found there.
You forget that it was the West that allow Israeli/Jewish terrorists to attack and force the displacement of nearly 1m people from the land they occupied for since 12th century in 1948.

Si I'd say that the Arabs have at the very least good reason to say they have been victims of the West and Israel.







The Arab world was more advanced that the West to 14th century : why the Arab world stagnated when they were ahead of us is not known.
It certainly wasn;t because of Islam (which was founded in 6th century) otherwise if it was due to Islam, why did the Arab world get ahead of the West between the 6th and 14th centuries ?




Made to understand ?
Is this Melanie Philips speak ?

We've been meddling in their affairs for the past 100 years at least and look where it's got us ?

You need to start posting some facts here instead of waffling.

Some time back you (falsely) claimed that 6 muslim men were arrested in Bradford for the murder of a policewoman.
6 men weren;t arrested at the time you posted that.
Indeed the police never referred to anyone as being Muslim.

You need to start posting facts and not opinions.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

Now that you're in the numbers game in September 2004, The Lancet estimated that at least 100,000 Iraqi's had been killed since the US invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

100,000 dead Iraqi's, at least.

9/11 was a crime : 3,000 souls died that day.
And those deaths have been compounded by the illegal, unethical and duplicitious lie that iraq had something to do with 9/11, that SH had funded the perpetrators of 9/11, that SH had weapons of mass destruction.

Yep, 9/11 was terrible - and it has been compounded by a two duplicitious liars called Blair and Bush (and General Sharon).

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

darkboong

You have a lot in common with the majority of the Muslims getting the shit bombed out of them in Iraq and Afghanistan in that case.

jhuskey

I am getting bombed right now,anyone want to join me?

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Sobriety is over rated!