Ireland so close to Beating the AB's

darkboong

I must admit I wasn't much interested in propping at the time, so I wasn't actually paying enough attention to those guys. I was more interested in what the #8 and blindside flankers were up to, I used to play #6 (which I loved) and I loved playing #8 even though I was pretty light for a #6.

Oddly I never really took to Rob Andrew - I particularly hated the way he used to avoid contact, he gave away a lot of soft tries IMO. Mehrtyns showed the way that position should be played IMO (Wilkinson and Carter have taken the Mehrtyns lesson on board without a shadow of a doubt - what cracking #10's they were/are).

Hodgeson seems to be a slightly less contact shy Rob Andrew, which is no bad thing, it has been great to see him bring his kicking boots to the Autumn internationals. It was frustrating to watch him miss time and time again, when at club level you'd expect him to slot those kicks without missing a beat.

Tindall put in some tackles, but he's not taking ball and penetrating the line enough - you never get the feeling that anything is on when he's got the ball in hand. He appears to be mostly getting stopped and delivering the ball slowly. Again I know full well he *can* do that stuff, so it is pretty frustrating to watch. England need a Shanklin or a Darcy type player. At a pinch I'd settle for Laharrague declaring that he's really English and would love to play #13 instead of his usual #15. :P

Fixey

I have proped for more than 30 years and imho it was Hayman and Vickery trying to pull down (As a dirty tight head always does) and the heroic Loose heads keeping it up. It is with a heavy heart that I must concede that Hayman out propped Sheridan completly. For a tight head to gain ascendency over a loose head (VERY RARE!!!!!!!!) he must have cheated!!!!
This was highlited for me when the AB's had 7 at scrum time and Hayman still screwed him!

I say this NOT with tongue in cheek. I am a #1 first, Kiwi second

In all seriousnes, the AB scrum smashed the English scrum more often than not, from a die hard prop it was great to watch. I think Sheridan is a top class prop, and I think only 1 or 2 in the world will trouble him but Hayman is the best #3 in the world at the moment imo (Bastard helped Otago destroy my beloved Canterbury in the Semi's of the NPC). I think Thomson would strugle to make a club side over here and vivkery is a good tradesman but not world class. I do like your locks when they play rugby and leave the thuggery out!

Fixey

I have proped for more than 30 years and imho it was Hayman and Vickery trying to pull down (As a dirty tight head always does) and the heroic Loose heads keeping it up. It is with a heavy heart that I must concede that Hayman out propped Sheridan completly. For a tight head to gain ascendency over a loose head (VERY RARE!!!!!!!!) he must have cheated!!!!
This was highlited for me when the AB's had 7 at scrum time and Hayman still screwed him!

I say this NOT with tongue in cheek. I am a #1 first, Kiwi second

In all seriousnes, the AB scrum smashed the English scrum more often than not, from a die hard prop it was great to watch. I think Sheridan is a top class prop, and I think only 1 or 2 in the world will trouble him but Hayman is the best #3 in the world at the moment imo (Bastard helped Otago destroy my beloved Canterbury in the Semi's of the NPC). I think Thomson would strugle to make a club side over here and vivkery is a good tradesman but not world class. I do like your locks when they play rugby and leave the thuggery out!

limerickman

The AB's were down to seven forwards for the majority of the second half and yet the English scrum did not make ground in the scrum.

Hayman and Woodcock did very well.

As regards the most destructive scrummaging prop in world rugby - look no further than Nicholas Mas of France.
he's have Hayman/Woodcock/Vickery/Sheridan for breakfast.
He only plays 45 mins per game for France but he literally destroys the opposition.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Fixey

Scotland played very well this morning. I think they had a few decisions go against them that where critical that may have made for an interesting game (AB's third try being one of them) I think the Scot's are heading in the right direction, perhaps may be a more competitive unit in the 5 1/2 nationsthan first thought. May be without there #3 for a bit after the filthy bugger stomped McCaw though!

darkboong

Not wishing to detract from the NZ scrum, but the backrow don't seem to provide much power in a scrum, it's the Tight-5 that does the hard work. I thought that the new tougher binding rule would change that, but it seems as though the backrow are still pretty much (heavy) garnish.

As a blindside I tended to break pretty late and I would often steady the scrum a bit - particularly if there was a club-footed lock, but from what little I know of scrummaging the Locks were the main source of power (I played tighthead prop a few times as well). As a (very light) tighthead prop and blindside I found that eventually you got to know how the other folks in the scrum used their weight so you could anticipate. When the scrum was working well it was a bit like dancing.

darkboong

The Scots have always tended to be a bit scruffy as far as the legality of the game goes for a while now. That said McDonald was a --ing retard for swinging at the Scottish flanker in front of the ref. Besides he had broken from the scrum too early and he should have been blown up for that anyway, McCaw is good, that guy is shite. That's before I get onto the fact that he dropped/knocked on the ball when hit by the Scottish backs.

Hugo Southwell had a good game I thought. In general I got the feeling the Scots would have given the All Blacks a serious headache if they ran straight more often (I was yelling at the screen "Run straight FFS"). That second half try illustrated that pretty well (and what a cracking kick that was). For some reason Northern Hemisphere backs really don't like running straight at the All Blacks, that has to change. They are not going to win anything running across the pitch.

Fixey

Last northernerto run teight at the ABs was probaby Colin Charvis....if you rembember the result of that with Jerry Collins you may have some insight as to why they dont do it.

Seriously though Northern Hemi teams backs are crap! (bar mabey the French on a good day) They need to learn how to create space, feed space and FFS BREACK THE LINE!!!! They just cant breack a defensive Line!

darkboong

Charvis certainly ain't the last one. Leamy broke the line repeatedly, as did Darcy. Problem is they had no one with them because their support was allowing themselves to be taken out late, rather than adopting a fuck you mentality and simply breaking the All Blacks loitering offside into itty-bitty pieces.

Anyone can break people on the pitch. Hell, even I've done it, and I was a very clean player. There is nothing clever or special about being a thug on the pitch, loitering offside, late tackles, swinging arms, high tackles, and of course spear tackling people. If that is what it takes to beat the All Blacks people will do it eventually. The South Africans did it in the World Cup final, and they were in no way a top-flight team at the time. In fact as I recall the South African appeared to have made it team policy to beat the shit out of off-side loitering All Blacks.



It doesn't seem to be a question of "can't", it's more a question of "won't". If you looked at them they were running sideways rather than forwards. I have seen every one of those players run straight and offload so they *can* do it.

Fixey

Thats more than a little unfair mate. The AB's are no angels but they are by no means the dirty cheats you make them to be. The AB's of history may have been brutes and thugs, as was exceptable in those days but I dont see the AB's like that anymore, unlike the Africans French and Poms. As for tacktical cheating you surely cant beat the Aussies and, by their own admission, the Welsh. Not even the "Flat" backlines and rushing defence of the Africans and Poms. The loitering offside you mention goes hand in hand with the dummy running that is now previlant. Buth came out of the ACT super 12 franchise and both are used by all good teams, its just that the northern guys arnt very good at it!

Dont get me started on the '95 cup final. Their are many reasons we lost....the one you suggest isnt one of them.

I assume you make special mention of spare tackles in light of the Irish player who spared Nonu?

darkboong

Read my post more carefully.



That is because the refs in the Northern Hemisphere have had a tendancy to penalise that stuff. The post you started this thread with expressed dismay at the ref's decisions, that is where I believe the difference in playing styles comes from.



The ABs looked scared quite frankly after 20 minutes of getting the shit kicked out of them when they were offside.



I am not too fussed about that stuff as long as everyone is playing by the same rules and they are penalised fairly. Nonu's tackle was actually OK, not particularly clever and slightly unnecessary IMO. When all said and done I really don't see any need for spear tackling whoever does it. Besides, it is a stupid way to tackle as well as being dangerous.

To summarise : The AB's play well, but they do exploit all that "grey area" stuff ruthlessly and one day they will get beaten that way too (and that is precisely what the English did not so long ago). For my own part I actually like the difference in styles between the various nation, long may it continue. It has made for some fantastic rugby over the years.

limerickman

I see Lewis Moody got banned for nine weeks - and quite correct too.

I watched the highlights of that match and Cueto was bang out of order in that tackle that led to the punch up.
On the replay, he (Cueto) jumped off the ground as he went in to the tackle.
The Samoan was committed anyhow and had no choice but to follow through
thus he upended Cueto (who was already in the air).

Then Cueto retaliated (a few minutes earlier, Cueto was clotheslined) so his blood was up but he was actually in the wrong by jumping in to the latter challenge that caused the punchup.

Moody then decided to come over and have a go.

The Samoan threw punches as well : he was out of order but I expect he was trying to defend himself (against Moody ?).

Otherwise, it wasn't a bad game.

Great to see Scotland doing well - I really feared that it would be a massive margin : but they did well (albeit against a slightly weakened AB side).

Wales V Australia was a great game - very enjoyable.

As regards style of rugby, the AB's have always walked a thin line in my opinion as regards off side and playing on the limit.
My worry is that the game is getting far too physical - the people playing the game are getting stronger and stronger.
My worry is that someone could actually get killed playing international rugby
(or end up getting crippled for life).

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

darkboong

And so my hope that he'll settle will go unrewarded. It's a pity, but he had it coming.

I share your fears about the physicality of the game Lim.

limerickman

Moody's a good player - if he could only get his temper under control, he'd be a great player.

I'm glad it's not just me who thinks the game has become far to physical.
The game was always tough but these days you have really large men running
and tackling opponents who could well be smaller and lighter.

I watched France V South Africa last weekend and it was trench warfare.
nothing dirty, just very physical.

Bakkies Botha (2nd row) literally hurtled in to a ruck head first : he's 18stone
6ft 5in : if someones head had popped out at the wrong angle at the wrong moment, he'd have broken their spin.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.