Cycling and bicycle racing discussion forums.   View New Forum Topics
Today's Forum Topics

Set as homepage


Go Back   Cycling Forums > Other Stuff > Your Bloody Soap Box
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Welcome to CyclingForums.com

You are currently viewing our website as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions. You will have to register before you can post to this thread.

By joining our free online community you will have access to post new topics, communicate privately with other cyclingforums.com members (PM), respond to polls, upload photos and access other special features like product reviews and classifieds.


Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-11.-2005, 12:00 AM   #1
Wurm
Registered User
 
Wurm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,148
Default Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Published on Monday, October 31, 2005 by the New York Times
Vietnam Study, Casting Doubts, Remains Secret
by Scott Shane
WASHINGTON - The National Security Agency (N.S.A.) has kept secret since 2001 a finding by an agency historian that during the Tonkin Gulf episode, which helped precipitate the Vietnam War, N.S.A. officers deliberately distorted critical intelligence to cover up their mistakes, two people familiar with the historian's work say. The historian's conclusion is the first serious accusation that communications intercepted by the N.S.A., the secretive eavesdropping and code-breaking agency, were falsified so that they made it look as if North Vietnam had attacked American destroyers on Aug. 4, 1964, two days after a previous clash. President Lyndon B. Johnson cited the supposed attack to persuade Congress to authorize broad military action in Vietnam, but most historians have concluded in recent years that there was no second attack.

Rather than come clean about their mistake, [midlevel National Security Agency officers] helped launch the United States into a bloody war that would last for 10 years.

The N.S.A. historian, Robert J. Hanyok, found a pattern of translation mistakes that went uncorrected, altered intercept times and selective citation of intelligence that persuaded him that midlevel agency officers had deliberately skewed the evidence.

Mr. Hanyok concluded that they had done it not out of any political motive but to cover up earlier errors, and that top N.S.A. and defense officials and Johnson neither knew about nor condoned the deception.

Mr. Hanyok's findings were published nearly five years ago in a classified in-house journal, and starting in 2002 he and other government historians argued that it should be made public. But their effort was rebuffed by higher-level agency policymakers, who by the next year were fearful that it might prompt uncomfortable comparisons with the flawed intelligence used to justify the war in Iraq, according to an intelligence official familiar with some internal discussions of the matter.

Matthew M. Aid, an independent historian who has discussed Mr. Hanyok's Tonkin Gulf research with current and former N.S.A. and C.I.A. officials who have read it, said he had decided to speak publicly about the findings because he believed they should have been released long ago.

"This material is relevant to debates we as Americans are having about the war in Iraq and intelligence reform," said Mr. Aid, who is writing a history of the N.S.A. "To keep it classified simply because it might embarrass the agency is wrong."

Mr. Aid's description of Mr. Hanyok's findings was confirmed by the intelligence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the research has not been made public.

Both men said Mr. Hanyok believed the initial misinterpretation of North Vietnamese intercepts was probably an honest mistake. But after months of detective work in N.S.A.'s archives, he concluded that midlevel agency officials discovered the error almost immediately but covered it up and doctored documents so that they appeared to provide evidence of an attack.

"Rather than come clean about their mistake, they helped launch the United States into a bloody war that would last for 10 years," Mr. Aid said.

Asked about Mr. Hanyok's research, an N.S.A. spokesman said the agency intended to release his 2001 article in late November. The spokesman, Don Weber, said the release had been "delayed in an effort to be consistent with our preferred practice of providing the public a more contextual perspective."

Mr. Weber said the agency was working to declassify not only Mr. Hanyok's article, but also the original intercepts and other raw material for his work, so the public could better assess his conclusions.

The intelligence official gave a different account. He said N.S.A. historians began pushing for public release in 2002, after Mr. Hanyok included his Tonkin Gulf findings in a 400-page, in-house history of the agency and Vietnam called "Spartans in Darkness." Though superiors initially expressed support for releasing it, the idea lost momentum as Iraq intelligence was being called into question, the official said.

Mr. Aid said he had heard from other intelligence officials the same explanation for the delay in releasing the report, though neither he nor the intelligence official knew how high up in the agency the issue was discussed. A spokesman for Gen. Michael V. Hayden, who was the agency's. director until last summer and is now the principal deputy director of national intelligence, referred questions to Mr. Weber, the N.S.A. spokesman, who said he had no further information.

Many historians believe that even without the Tonkin Gulf episode, Johnson might have found a reason to escalate military action against North Vietnam. They note that Johnson apparently had his own doubts about the Aug. 4 attack and that a few days later told George W. Ball, the under secretary of state, "Hell, those dumb, stupid sailors were just shooting at flying fish!"

But Robert S. McNamara, who as defense secretary played a central role in the Tonkin Gulf affair, said in an interview last week that he believed the intelligence reports had played a decisive role in the war's expansion.

"I think it's wrong to believe that Johnson wanted war," Mr. McNamara said. "But we thought we had evidence that North Vietnam was escalating."

Mr. McNamara, 89, said he had never been told that the intelligence might have been altered to shore up the scant evidence of a North Vietnamese attack.

"That really is surprising to me," said Mr. McNamara, who Mr. Hanyok found had unknowingly used the altered intercepts in 1964 and 1968 in testimony before Congress. "I think they ought to make all the material public, period."

The supposed second North Vietnamese attack, on the American destroyers Maddox and C. Turner Joy, played an outsize role in history. Johnson responded by ordering retaliatory air strikes on North Vietnamese targets and used the event to persuade Congress to pass the Gulf of Tonkin resolution on Aug. 7, 1964.

It authorized the president "to take all necessary steps, including the use of armed force," to defend South Vietnam and its neighbors and was used both by Johnson and President Richard M. Nixon to justify escalating the war, in which 58,226 Americans and more than 1 million Vietnamese died.

Not all the details of Mr. Hanyok's analysis, published in N.S.A.'s Cryptologic Quarterly in early 2001, could be learned. But they involved discrepancies between the official N.S.A. version of the events of Aug. 4, 1964, and intercepts from N.S.A. listening posts at Phu Bai in South Vietnam and San Miguel in the Philippines that are in the agency archives.

One issue, for example, was the translation of a phrase in an Aug. 4 North Vietnamese transmission. In some documents the phrase, "we sacrificed two comrades" - an apparent reference to casualties during the clash with American ships on Aug. 2 - was incorrectly translated as "we sacrificed two ships." That phrase was used to suggest that the North Vietnamese were reporting the loss of ships in a new battle Aug. 4, the intelligence official said.

The original Vietnamese version of that intercept, unlike many other intercepts from the same period, is missing from the agency's archives, the official said.

The intelligence official said the evidence for deliberate falsification is "about as certain as it can be without a smoking gun - you can come to no other conclusion."

Despite its well-deserved reputation for secrecy, the N.S.A. in recent years has made public dozens of studies by its Center for Cryptologic History. A study by Mr. Hanyok on signals intelligence and the Holocaust, titled "Eavesdropping on Hell," was published last year.

Two historians who have written extensively on the Tonkin Gulf episode, Edwin E. Moise of Clemson University and John Prados of the National Security Archive in Washington, said they were unaware of Mr. Hanyok's work but found his reported findings intriguing.

"I'm surprised at the notion of deliberate deception at N.S.A.," Dr. Moise said. "But I get surprised a lot."

Dr. Prados said, "If Mr. Hanyok's conclusion is correct, it adds to the tragic aspect of the Vietnam War." In addition, he said, "it's new evidence that intelligence, so often treated as the Holy Grail, turns out to be not that at all, just as in Iraq."

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

Now, this was in retrospect a trifle compared to the "new Pearl Harbor" (9/11) that was aided and abetted by the Neo-Cons in the Bush admin. as an excuse to invade the Middle East.

Given recent developments in the Plamegate affair, the BushCo's propensity for lying and secrecy, their mutating of the law to shred the Constitution, the Neo-Cons published ideology (PNAC), and the events surrounding 9/11 and it's cover-up afterwords, is it any real surprise that the BushCo's created and/or encouraged the 9/11 attacks?

To any sane and honest mind, I think the answer is clear.
__________________
"Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense."

- John Dean, former Counsel to the President (Nixon)

The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.
Wurm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-11.-2005, 02:59 PM   #2
wolfix
Registered User
 
wolfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: "Still in 1975"
Posts: 2,722
Send a message via AIM to wolfix
Default Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm
To any sane and honest mind, I think the answer is clear.

And what answer did you come up with?
__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."
wolfix is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11.-2005, 09:24 AM   #3
davidmc
Registered User
 
davidmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: metro dc USA
Posts: 3,394
Default Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Thanks Wurm
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:  billday.gif
Views: 8
Size:  44.0 KB  Click image for larger version

Name:  ofarrell.gif
Views: 7
Size:  46.8 KB  Click image for larger version

Name:  trever.gif
Views: 7
Size:  53.7 KB  
__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )
davidmc is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-11.-2005, 06:56 PM   #4
Eldron
Registered User
 
Eldron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Posts: 830
Default Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfix
And what answer did you come up with?



Pffffff BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA.

I know that was at your expense Wurm but it was fookin funny.
Eldron is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-11.-2005, 01:26 PM   #5
Wurm
Registered User
 
Wurm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,148
Thumbs down Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

No prob, david.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfix
And what answer did you come up with?

What, ignoring the facts again, like with the N.O. debacle?? Seriously man, I really can't see debating/discussing issues with someone that's coming from a delusional mindset like you.

You go back to constantly patting yourself on the back for working a job, k? Meanwhile, I'll stick ya on my "ignore" list.

Deal?
__________________
"Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense."

- John Dean, former Counsel to the President (Nixon)

The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.
Wurm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-11.-2005, 03:17 PM   #6
wolfix
Registered User
 
wolfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: "Still in 1975"
Posts: 2,722
Send a message via AIM to wolfix
Default Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm
No prob, david.


What, ignoring the facts again, like with the N.O. debacle?? Seriously man, I really can't see debating/discussing issues with someone that's coming from a delusional mindset like you.

You go back to constantly patting yourself on the back for working a job, k? Meanwhile, I'll stick ya on my "ignore" list.

Deal?

It must be frustrating to be a 32 year old junior at a university knowing that as soon as they force you to graduate that you are even too old to work at McDonalds. Then you will have to get a job when your parents kick you out of their basement....
__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."
wolfix is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-11.-2005, 05:08 PM   #7
Wurm
Registered User
 
Wurm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,148
Thumbs down Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfix
It must be frustrating to be a 32 year old junior at a university knowing that as soon as they force you to graduate that you are even too old to work at McDonalds. Then you will have to get a job when your parents kick you out of their basement....
That would be you perhaps?

This is me and my 6-year old daughter back in May, in her playroom which I paid for. Maybe they have dorms decorated like this where you go to "university"? And thanks for saying I look only 32.

You can shaddap now, Homer.

C'ya.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:  Emily&Dad 5-21-05 010 copy.jpg
Views: 19
Size:  98.4 KB  
__________________
"Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense."

- John Dean, former Counsel to the President (Nixon)

The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.
Wurm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-11.-2005, 06:33 PM   #8
wolfix
Registered User
 
wolfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: "Still in 1975"
Posts: 2,722
Send a message via AIM to wolfix
Default Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm
That would be you perhaps?

This is me and my 6-year old daughter back in May, in her playroom which I paid for. Maybe they have dorms decorated like this where you go to "university"? And thanks for saying I look only 32.

You can shaddap now, Homer.

C'ya.
Hey, as long as this is family portrait time ........Why not?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:  200px-George-W-Bush.jpg
Views: 2
Size:  14.1 KB  
__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."
wolfix is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-11.-2005, 12:37 AM   #9
davidmc
Registered User
 
davidmc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: metro dc USA
Posts: 3,394
Default Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfix
Hey, as long as this is family portrait time ........Why not?

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )
davidmc is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-11.-2005, 12:45 AM   #10
Wurm
Registered User
 
Wurm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,148
Default Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Quote:
This message is hidden because wolfix is on your ignore list.

Isn't technology wonderful?
__________________
"Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense."

- John Dean, former Counsel to the President (Nixon)

The aim of big corporations is to separate fools from their money all of the time and ordinary folks from their money most of the time. The rest of us must fend for ourselves.
Wurm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-11.-2005, 01:27 AM   #12
Colorado Ryder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,229
Default Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm
Meanwhile, I'll stick ya on my "ignore" list.

Welcome to the club Wolfix! Quite amazing that some (WURM) are to immature to actually discuss and resort to the old tactic of I'm taking my toys and going home. Eventually everyone will be on his ignore list.
Colorado Ryder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-11.-2005, 01:52 AM   #13
Cannibal2
Registered User
 
Cannibal2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Default Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurm
That would be you perhaps?

This is me and my 6-year old daughter back in May, in her playroom which I paid for. Maybe they have dorms decorated like this where you go to "university"? And thanks for saying I look only 32.

You can shaddap now, Homer.

C'ya.
Look, I'm not particularly fond of your views but I'm passing on a little fatherly advice...In my opinion, you should seek counseling for posting your kid in a soapbox. Does you wife know you pulled this stunt? You did this to prove that you have a job??? How about posting your pay stub instead, much better than posting your home pics..BTW, dropped ceiling and florescent lights? Kind of looks like a schoolhouse to me... Anyway, the point I'm trying to convey to you is you don't know who in the hell is on this board so for pete's sake, think man, think!
Cannibal2 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-11.-2005, 01:54 AM   #14
wolfix
Registered User
 
wolfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: "Still in 1975"
Posts: 2,722
Send a message via AIM to wolfix
Default Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado Ryder
Welcome to the club Wolfix! Quite amazing that some (WURM) are to immature to actually discuss and resort to the old tactic of I'm taking my toys and going home. Eventually everyone will be on his ignore list.

Somehow I get this funny feeling that he actually takes his posting on a forum as a serious threat to Bush or whoever. I bet most of us read the posts and postour own stuff because we are sitting at our computer desks doing other things that earn us a living.... Or killing time.
I wonder what it is like living near this guy???? Yard signs of a political nature in his yard all year around, a station wagon plastered with bumper stickers, and his paperboy is afraid to deliver the paper because he hears about Bush & Co. everytime Wurm happens to be outside. I bet the Mormons missionaries even avid his house.....
And now he is ignoring me ...... I wonder how long this will last? I will miss his name calling.... I haven't had to deal with name calling since my daughters grew up. Oh well, I guess it's up to us Colorado Ryder o spread the word as to what a wonderful country we live in......."The Land Of Plenty."
__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."
wolfix is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-11.-2005, 02:02 AM   #15
wolfix
Registered User
 
wolfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: "Still in 1975"
Posts: 2,722
Send a message via AIM to wolfix
Default Re: Falsified documents helped precipitate Vietnam War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannibal2
Look, I'm not particularly fond of your views but I'm passing on a little fatherly advice...In my opinion, you should seek counseling for posting your kid in a soapbox. Does you wife know you pulled this stunt? You did this to prove that you have a job??? How about posting your pay stub instead, much better than posting your home pics..BTW, dropped ceiling and florescent lights? Kind of looks like a schoolhouse to me... Anyway, the point I'm trying to convey to you is you don't know who in the hell is on this board so for pete's sake, think man, think!

I was thinking the same thing........ Think about this ...... Here is a man who thinks Repugs and Repigs are the most vile of all creatures and then he posts his daughters pic on the net for all of them to see.....
But... I am still willing to bet he is a humanities student somewhere sitting at his laptop sipping his latte..... I mean if this guy "REALLY" believes these far out things he writes and the hatred he spouts off about then I am glad he put me on his ignore list.
The weather is great and I have some miles to put in on my road bike...... Nothing better then riding in a new woolen jersey that was way over-priced and worth every penny .......
I just hope the winds are mild......
__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."
wolfix is offline  
Reply With Quote

Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT +10. The time now is 11:07 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Copyright © 2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2001 - 2006 cyclingforums.com

Links to websites we like:
Pezcyclingnews | Cyclingnews.com | Wine Zone | iinet