Page 4 - The beginning of America's liberalism.

02-11.-2005, 09:54 PM

#46

Billsworld

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Posts: 797

Re: The beginning of America's liberalism.

Life isnt always "fair" For purposes of this discussion, lets say we eliminate the bottom $10-20,000 of income ......for everyone. No tax on it. The problem is spending/programs that never end and always get bigger. Its the same as if you or I spend more than we make. I can think of lots of things I want, need, gotta have..I have boundries, they have none. Thanks dmc

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmc

I'm not against tax-cuts but there has to be, in my humble opinion, fiscal responsibility. Giving back more than the gov't takes in is not responsible. I suspect Bush & his cadre know this fact all too well

I don't think Bush, Cheney (especially), Frist, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfeld, Rice, ect...are not pinning their retirements on gov't programs whereas the bottom 10% are forced to due to the exportation of high paying, blue-collar jobs over the past 30 yrs. They will depend on soc. sec., medicaid, heating subsidies, ect...to survive. The upper 40%, however, could live w/o such programs & still be able to enjoy their w/e at the country club. The poor are citizens too. Unfortunately for them & fortunately for the well-off, many of them serving as targets in Iraq

02-11.-2005, 11:11 PM

#47

stevebaby

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Location: Craggy Island

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Re: The beginning of America's liberalism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfix

I didn't mean to imply that lawyers are bad or not needed. I believe in America we just have too many. I recently went to a lawyer trying to recover $5000 wages not paid me. This was never disputed by the person who owed me. He just suggested that the law would not make him pay. My lawyer agreed. He did tell me that the case would cause me more money then I would regain. That is a fair and honest lawyer. He did not tell me what I wanted to hear, but what I needed to hear.
But the law makers are usually lawyers who head into political office.They have allowed the system to become "litigation friendly" through the laws they create. The main point that Catherine Crier makes in her book is that when a law is made or revised, you can follow the money back and almost everytime it is a lawyer who reaps the benifits.
I have experiance in small claims court that leads me to believe that that particular court is nothing but a flip of the coin. Even when I knew I was right 100% I would settle for less outside the courts.
Too many Americans want to run to the courts to grab their piece of the pie. They have a very perverse sense of justice. They feel as if they have no personal responsibility but that everybody else has a responsibility to insure their happiness. I call this the "Wal-Mart Domino Effect." I was involved in painting of homes 15 years ago. I honestly had people that wanted me to re-paint their homes because they were not happy with the color they choose. It was not the quality of the job, but the fact once they saw the color applied they were not happy.. And they honestly felt that it was my responsibility to ensure complete customer satisfaction. At Wal_mart , you can use something, and return it , no questions asked. And this overlaps into consumerism.
It is a jungle out there.

The us has more lawyers per capita than any other country.It's a response to market forces,there is obviously a greater need for their services than in any other country.That is how capitalism works,isn't it? The market responds to the consumer's need?
If you don't like hiring someone to represent your interests,you have the legal right to represent yourself.Under a democracy like the us has,won't you receive equal consideration?
Don't you specify colours in a contract? Don't you specify numbers of coats,don't you comply to International standards regarding painting.If y0u don't,buddy,you have only yourself to blame,you're a "cowboy" contractor and I make money out of fixing the sort of jobs that you can't do.
Here's some information for you-when you sign a contract with a client,specify the the type of paint,the number of coats,the number and type of undercoats and primers and the standard of finish according to International Standards.
If you can't do this yourself,hire a lawyer to do it for you,but don't bitch because you couldn't make money in a competitive business where everyone else complied with International Standards.
I think it was the standard of your work,actually.Don't blame lawyers because you're a lousy painter.

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03-11.-2005, 03:44 AM

#48

davidmc

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Re: The beginning of America's liberalism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Induray

Fiscal responsibilty.....dream on!Goverment like to spend period. Depend on Social Security? Come on!

I am not rcih , I am a salaried employee, but I have made sure that my retirement planning DOES NOT include Social Security. How do I do that? Well , I planned , I budget and I work hard (and play hard), I set my priorities. I make sure I am well insured(not overinsured), I budget so I pay myself and family first, I do judicious investments. My sacrifices are, I do not drive new expensive cars, I do not own a 3000 sq ft home and I carry no debt, I do not have a $3000 plus bike, I do well with what I've got.

Depend on the goverment? Remember goverment inaction on New Orleans Katrina and Miami Wilma? Not to mention the fact that the day AFTER the hurricane people were lining up to get their goverment issued bottled water. Now, what's up with that??? Here is an underlying problem. People expect goverment to bail them out of their stupid decision. They are now dependent on goverment bailing them out so they are not accountable for their actions. And Goverment likes that. We need to break that dependency cold turkey! We need to start by eliminating the IRS. A consumption tax will force you to consider closely if you really want that Flat PAnel TV with Satellite and a cellphone with 100 tones. (Although because of existing embedded taxes in the price of product, consumption taxes will not increase that significant and you get 100% of your income).
I could go on but I have to go to work.

So, I take it you disagree w/ President Roosevelt's work

Are you a darwinist, everyone for themselves

There is an inherent disparity in a republican, conservative president who spends more (Iraq, tax-cuts) than he takes in. He is no conservative.

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03-11.-2005, 04:16 AM

#49

Billsworld

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Posts: 797

Re: The beginning of America's liberalism.

Darwinist????Thats not an accurate way to describe it. I am not a fn of Roosevelts work . Not because some good didnt come from it, but because it opened pandoras box. A program such as the GI bill is a good thing. But that doesnt make every nice sounding, good intentioned program a usefull investment of tax dollars. Govt becomes like a snowball rolling down a hill. The apetite for Senator X to get his name at the top of bill is the goal for him. Headlines, self promotion, re election is what they are after. Its pricipal based. Your rights shouldnt conflict with mine. You shouldnt sieze my wages and give them to whom you see fit. If you want to give up your wages thats OK. I might, or I might not give mine ...................................................................... .................................................................

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmc

So, I take it you disagree w/ President Roosevelt's work

Are you a darwinist, everyone for themselves

There is an inherent disparity in a republican, conservative president who spends more (Iraq, tax-cuts) than he takes in. He is no conservative.

03-11.-2005, 04:19 AM

#50

Induray

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Posts: 273

Re: The beginning of America's liberalism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmc

So, I take it you disagree w/ President Roosevelt's work

Are you a darwinist, everyone for themselves

Exactly, Social Security wasn't meant to be a retirement system as it is today. This has failed. I do not dispute, however, the intentions of Mr. Roosevelt were honest, he was a great president.
Remember Katrina and Wilma?...everybody was/is for themselves, despite the fact that we have FEMA and a bloated Federal Goverment. This is beyond partisan issues. It would be nice if the goverment was fiscally responsible and ahd the ability to eradicated poverty. But ain't happening!

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmc

There is an inherent disparity in a republican, conservative president who spends more (Iraq, tax-cuts) than he takes in. He is no conservative.

My point exactly. Democrats are the same. Maybe a Libertarian?

Note: Any misspelled words in my posts are due to a software glitch in this website.

Hey, I am not responsiblefor my actions!

03-11.-2005, 05:34 AM

#51

Billsworld

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Re: The beginning of America's liberalism.

Dont want to get into the middle of your mini battle here, BUT.. I own a wholesale prefinished lumber biz(my paint bills are slightly under $1000,000 per year), as well as developing RE. I started as a house painter in school. It snowballed into this. I think Wolfixs point was that it is often more difficult/ expensive and time consuming to obtain damages regardless of who dunit. In that industry there are also very unrealistic expectations to a "paint job" Older homes are occasionaly impossable to make perfect without a rehab that might cost 5, 10, 20 times the cost of a repaint. Some very honest reliable painters are small timers inpickup trucks, with no resources to battle a well healed contractor or home owner....No fair!!!...................................

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevebaby

03-11.-2005, 06:55 AM

#52

davidmc

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Re: The beginning of America's liberalism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Induray

This is beyond partisan issues. It would be nice if the goverment was fiscally responsible and ahd the ability to eradicated poverty. But ain't happening!

Have you forgotten, President Clinton had a surplus

& he is a Democrat

03-11.-2005, 08:28 AM

#53

Billsworld

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Re: The beginning of America's liberalism.

I gotta be honest.....Its tough to defnd W, but if you look at the real timeline of the clinton miracle years; we were well into a recovery while Bush Sr. was still in office, and well into a decline prior to his exit. I am not sure you could credit the Clintons for the .com boom,(clearly resonsable for those good years) unless you give him credit for the bust too. Then again there was a Republican congress keeping him in check, ....maybe they get the credit...or blame. I wouldnt be too quick to give any President too much credit for ecenomic cycles clearly beyond thier controll. I think Bill Gates should get the credit for the "clinton" years, . Geeze, now I am confused. Cumon DVMC think outside the liberal box. The Dem. party line is no place to be

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmc

Have you forgotten, President Clinton had a surplus

& he is a Democrat

03-11.-2005, 08:43 AM

#54

davidmc

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Re: The beginning of America's liberalism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsworldb

Cumon DVMC think outside the liberal box. The Dem. party line is no place to be

My favorite politicians are Harry Reid (D-Nev), Charles Schumer (D-N.Y), Charlie Rangel (D-N.y.), Nancy Pelosi (D-Ca.), Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), & Orrin Hatch (R-Nev). Primarily Dem's w/ a sprinkling of moderate Repub's.

On the other hand, Bush/Cheney, Rove, Libby, Frist, Hastert. DeLay, Brownback, Sensenbrenner, ect...turn my stomach

http://reid.senate.gov/
http://schumer.senate.gov/
http://www.charlierangel.org/index.php
http://www.house.gov/pelosi/
http://specter.senate.gov/
http://hatch.senate.gov/

Here's a quote from Rangel, who served in the U.S. Army, in Korea from 1948-52, & was awarded the Purple Heart & Bronze Star (Patriotic

You bet your as*

Quote:

"The decision we're making today is; how badly do we want to cut taxes for the rich and by how much. We're authorized to cut them another $106 billion, most people say we're going to cut $70 billion, and we have to pay for it somehow. In the past we paid for it by borrowing money from China and from our friends in Europe and Asia. Now, we have decided, or soon will decide, whether or not we take not $1billion, but $8 billion from programs that are designed to assist children who are basically in poverty.

"Take into consideration that there is only one other nation that has more kids in poverty than we do, and that is Mexico. This is something that does not make any member of this committee proud, but one day someone will ask - maybe our kids and grandchildren: When these tragedies were taking place, when there's been close to a 5 million person increase in poverty, the rich are getting richer, the gap between the rich and the poor was growing and you were on the Ways and Means Committee considering the reconciliation bill, how did you vote? Did you vote to decrease the tax liability for those with the largest incomes, or did you take into consideration the fact that we have to do something about our poor? Poverty is a threat to our national security the poor are expensive to support. Forget compassion, it's the right thing to do, to give some assistance so that kids can dream and hope. So they can work out of poverty and become productive citizens.

"So, Mr. Chairman, when you say there are no cuts in programs, I guess you just disregard the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) paper which indicates that families will lose $21.3 billion over ten years in child support payments as a result of the cuts you've suggested to collection efforts. So it's gong to be painful, everyone knows that. You can't just take money away from programs and say it's not going to adversely affect the underprivileged. But, to finance tax breaks for the wealthy by cutting into the biggest support we give to people who are struggling to make ends meet - it's not historic, but I think it's very political.

Last edited by davidmc : 03-11.-2005 at 09:04 AM.

03-11.-2005, 09:08 AM

#55

stevebaby

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Re: The beginning of America's liberalism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsworld

I agree that clients often have unrealistic expectations and I take Wolfix's point about the cost of litigation to recover damages.I know from personal experience how true that is.That's not the lawyer's fault though.

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03-11.-2005, 05:52 PM

#56

wolfix

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Re: The beginning of America's liberalism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevebaby

The us has more lawyers per capita than any other country.It's a response to market forces,there is obviously a greater need for their services than in any other country.That is how capitalism works,isn't it? The market responds to the consumer's need?
If you don't like hiring someone to represent your interests,you have the legal right to represent yourself.Under a democracy like the us has,won't you receive equal consideration?
Don't you specify colours in a contract? Don't you specify numbers of coats,don't you comply to International standards regarding painting.If y0u don't,buddy,you have only yourself to blame,you're a "cowboy" contractor and I make money out of fixing the sort of jobs that you can't do.
Here's some information for you-when you sign a contract with a client,specify the the type of paint,the number of coats,the number and type of undercoats and primers and the standard of finish according to International Standards.

If you can't do this yourself,hire a lawyer to do it for you,but don't bitch because you couldn't make money in a competitive business where everyone else complied with International Standards.
I think it was the standard of your work,actually.Don't blame lawyers because you're a lousy painter.

I fully understand the way to structure a contract ..... I have a background in the contract field that extends back to my very early youth. My family had owned one of the largest privately home improvement companies in the nation throught out the 80's. We had offices in 9 states. I set up offices and financing in several of the states so not only am I familiar with contract law, I am familiar with the differences of the different states.... At least I was in the 80's.
I entered the painting field after the sale of the family business. But if you do enough business, you will see all sorts of things. In the 80's there was a mag called "Qualified Remodeler." Many of the articles in this magazine were written about the litigation a remodeler faces. If you do enough work, litigation is a fact of life.
And if you have never had a unsatisfiable customer, you haven't done enough work.
If you do not think the lawyers have not created a society that makes it difficult to operate in , then let's examine a few things. Our society has more rules then ever before. More rules do not guarantee society is better protected. More rules only offer a legal venue for redresss.
[read ---> high lawyer fees ]
People have become more numb subjected to endless rules where personel judgement is thrown out once you enter the court room...
Let's look at class action lawsuits ...... Most Americans do not realize there are actual law firms, some of the biggest in the county, actually trolling business for class action lawsuits.... Sure, it looks as if these guys are hero's but the truth is when the settlement comes, im most cases the money is distributed to the lawyers first, and if any money is left over, the "injured party" recieves a small compensation in form of a coupon or a discounty towards future purchases....
And the litigation that goes on is paid for by the consumer. Trace any new law or legislation and see if the money line does not trace back to a lawyer.
The Bill of Rights was designed to protect people against "government intrusion." The last few generations have turned this around to create affirmative obligations that are are imposed on businesses and the people.
The spiral goes on ..... New laws and more lawyers.

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