Page 7 - My experince with drugs and blood doping

10-08.-2005, 09:28 PM	#91
holli Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada Posts: 148	Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping So this topic has changed a little. I'm little bit surprised about peoples beliefs and opinions about doping in professional cycling. For me it seems that lots of people on this forum and in real life buy stories about doping if those stories are same as their beliefs. I know for sure that doping is still very widespread problem in european amateur scene and some riders I've raced with have been caught in tests. There's not too many tests in european amateur races but pricemoney is quite good and that makes it tempting for many to cheat. One also needs to ride very fast in amateur races to get a pro-contract. Even amateurs ride very f*cking fast and I found out that you need to be in very good form if you want to ride well and you need to be in super form (or on gear) to win. In european amateur scene there's lots of riders who ride bike almost like professionals (don't go to work or study) and usually they are very strong. OK...amateur races in europe are hard. Once you go to races with "real" professionals (teams like cofidis, rabobank etc.) the speed increases a lot. You notice that those riders who finish TdF 2-3 hours down on leader fly over the hills and just ride incredibly fast and over long time. Even top amateurs of which many use forbidden substances struggle when riding with Pro-Tour professional teams. Performance of many riders changes very quickly and at least I can't find too many reasons why. Maybe someone can explain me how this is possible. Based on my experience it's very very difficult to believe that riders who win Pro-Tour races could do that without doping. I know there is riders who don't take doping but then again they don't win big races (Pro-Tour, 1. and 2.HC). There is also dopers who don't win, but I quess they just lack talent and will to work. I know there are amateur riders who dope and don't win and that's just... I haven't ridden as a pro, but I've raced with professional cyclists more than once and sometimes I've done quite well with them. I'm not talented but i know riders who are and who have impressive palmares as an amateur in .5, .6 and .12 races but still they struggle when riding with really big guys. __________________ Pain is just weakness leaving the body.

11-08.-2005, 01:17 AM

#92

MJtje

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Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 1,125

Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Interesting is it really a big problem in the public eye........will people stop watching the tour or other races. I won't, couldn't care less........

The real problem is the banning of certain riders.........hamilton, frigo, vandenbroecke, millar.....once they get busted they shouldn't be allowed to come back anymore. Lotz said he won't ride ever again in the peloton...

The problem is when busted riders come back all the riders lose credibility (the very low credibility they allready have). Frigo has allready been caught a couple of times.........vandenbroecke the same...........

The sport is sadly allready so far down that almost every rider is suspicious and certainly riders who are gunning for GC in the 3 GT's.......LA's performance will always be called suspicious, Basso will win the TDF the next 4/5 years (cynics will always bring bjarne '60%' riss into the story)......they allready did that last year when CSC had such a strong spring campaign; cynics were beginning to wonder what CSC was on......

So how to solve it don't know........good thing is everybody still watches the sport and people (in europe certainly) know of the problem and don't really mind.........

Quote:

Originally Posted by holli

So this topic has changed a little.

I'm little bit surprised about peoples beliefs and opinions about doping in professional cycling. For me it seems that lots of people on this forum and in real life buy stories about doping if those stories are same as their beliefs.

I know for sure that doping is still very widespread problem in european amateur scene and some riders I've raced with have been caught in tests. There's not too many tests in european amateur races but pricemoney is quite good and that makes it tempting for many to cheat. One also needs to ride very fast in amateur races to get a pro-contract. Even amateurs ride very f*cking fast and I found out that you need to be in very good form if you want to ride well and you need to be in super form (or on gear) to win. In european amateur scene there's lots of riders who ride bike almost like professionals (don't go to work or study) and usually they are very strong.

OK...amateur races in europe are hard. Once you go to races with "real" professionals (teams like cofidis, rabobank etc.) the speed increases a lot. You notice that those riders who finish TdF 2-3 hours down on leader fly over the hills and just ride incredibly fast and over long time. Even top amateurs of which many use forbidden substances struggle when riding with Pro-Tour professional teams. Performance of many riders changes very quickly and at least I can't find too many reasons why. Maybe someone can explain me how this is possible.

Based on my experience it's very very difficult to believe that riders who win Pro-Tour races could do that without doping. I know there is riders who don't take doping but then again they don't win big races (Pro-Tour, 1. and 2.HC). There is also dopers who don't win, but I quess they just lack talent and will to work. I know there are amateur riders who dope and don't win and that's just...

I haven't ridden as a pro, but I've raced with professional cyclists more than once and sometimes I've done quite well with them. I'm not talented but i know riders who are and who have impressive palmares as an amateur in .5, .6 and .12 races but still they struggle when riding with really big guys.

11-08.-2005, 03:55 PM

#93

holli

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Join Date: Jan 2003

Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Posts: 148

Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJtje

One way of changing the current situation is change in attitudes and it begins when rider is starting to race as a junior. As I see it many young riders are clean and sometimes they even win races. All the current (older) professionals have to retire some day and that way they give room for new stars who hopefully are more willing to stay clean than take drugs. Different story is that, are these young riders still racing when old mafia is giving room at the top.

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16-08.-2005, 10:11 AM

#94

DV1976

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Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 348

Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJtje

good thing is everybody still watches the sport and people (in europe certainly) know of the problem and don't really mind.........

Really? Is this a good thing? That people have accepted that what they watch is chemistry in action and they don't mind? If true what does that say about society?

16-08.-2005, 02:28 PM	#95
TiMan Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Recovery is the Golden Fleece and almost nobody gets it right Posts: 484	Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping There has always been drugs used in pro cycling.....but in the past they had minimal impact on performance. Modern day drugs have FAR more effect.....yet not all bodies respond the same to these drugs so it is never "a level playing field". In the past the general public didn't know about the doping to the same extent as they do now. It doesn't matter though because most people will still watch cycling and are big fans simply because when they see top level racers the thought that they are juiced doesn't really cross their minds. But some, like myself, don't enjoy being a fan as much anymore because when we see someone being a "superman" we can't help but think DRUGS.

16-08.-2005, 08:56 PM

#96

wilmar13

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Location: Charlotte, NC

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiMan

There has always been drugs used in pro cycling.....but in the past they had minimal impact on performance.
Modern day drugs have FAR more effect.....yet not all bodies respond the same to these drugs so it is never "a level playing field".

I have seen this general statement made over and over and it makes absolutely no sense to me. I mean people respond differently to training as well so maybe we should eliminate training to make a more level playing field... oh wait then there would be people that ride faster without training than others due to genetic ability...maybe we can feed everyone the same food because I am sure some people gain a bigger advantage from diet than others (or conversely some will suffer more from a poor diet)...

It is fine to be against doping but whining about some people gettting a bigger advantage from it than others seems to be one the weakest arguments I have seen against doping.

17-08.-2005, 01:48 AM

#97

DV1976

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilmar13

It is fine to be against doping but whining about some people gettting a bigger advantage from it than others seems to be one the weakest arguments I have seen against doping.

However, what TiMan says is true. Different livers metabolize substances in a different way. The same drug will work miracles for one person and do absolutely nothing for another. The same thing happens in medicine frequently...
And it's not just drugs. I remember one of the first comprehensive studies on creatine done by the University of Nottingham (if I remember correctly) which showed improvements in performance from 5% to 40% depending on the individual...
I remember the case of a Greek sprinter (not Kenteris) who out of the blue won the 60m World Championships (indoors) and then vanished. Rumour had it that the guy was so unresponsive to "usual" PEDs that his coach had to resort to drugs used on horses... He had his day of fame and then he never ran competively again...

17-08.-2005, 01:55 AM

#98

TiMan

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilmar13

I am in the medical field have a good grasp on the effect of drugs on the human body at an individual level.

One guy can take testosterone at 150mg per week for example and experience no noticable side effects, like a gain in intracellular water weight, and find that his recuperative abilities are through the roof while another person can take the same dose and blow up with a 10 pound water gain, unless he takes an estrogen inhibitor like arimidex, and experience only modest gains in recuperative power.

Most men will see their crits increase by one point per week with a 4000iu weekly shot of epo BUT some need more....then a dose of 1000 per week will hold it there, depending on how high they go, BUT some need 2000 iu's.
Now I have seen men get HUGE increases in sustainable power output(like me) from epo and others much more modest increases, even with the same hematocrit.......one reason for this is that my normal crit is only about 40% and 42 on a good day while others have a a normal crit of 45%....so a 54% crit for me is going to have a greater effect than a 54% crit on a guy whose normal crit is 45%.
But then there can be other reasons that we do not understand with the limited science we have.

And if you have doped you have not seen a fellow team mate, that you used to "better" in training and racing, all of the sudden start to dominate you, when he is taking the same drugs and same doses as you. I was that guy that reponded really well. I was the second best rider on my last team for example when we were clean. When the team doped( all but two didn't) we all took the same gear and same doses. We all responded well to the drugs but I became SUPERMAN and nobody could touch me even though my best friend, the guy who was better than me while clean, had the same crit as me while on epo....and we took the same dose of testosterone.

Believe me everyone responds a differently to drugs and some respond VERY differently to drugs .... most in a general way with some small variation..... but some respond quite negatively and some respond VERY positively.

Last edited by TiMan : 17-08.-2005 at 02:21 AM.

17-08.-2005, 03:04 AM	#99
wilmar13 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,557	Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping I think both of you missed my intended point evidenced by continuing to argue that PED's have different effects on different people. I would be an idiot to disagree with that... my point was that if you are going to start claiming this as one of the reasons doping is bad, then you have to do the same with everything else that effects different people more than others such as training, diet, genetics, climate, etc. The fact that some people see bigger advantages than others does nothing to strengthen the argument against doping...one could argue that it levels the playing field since those that see the biggest improvements may have had the biggest deficits in terms of however you want to measure the increase. Using TiMans example of someone who has a hermatocrit of 40 using EPO to get it to 50+ is a perfect example (after all it isn't "fair" that I am stuck with 40 while the next guy has 50, if we both have 50 that is more "fair", one could argue). Argue doping is bad because it poses a health risk, it is illegal (and therefore has a criminal element), not everyone has access, etc.; those are airtight arguments (or at least they can stand on their own). Just my $.02.

17-08.-2005, 10:57 AM

#100

TiMan

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilmar13

I think both of you missed my intended point evidenced by continuing to argue that PED's have different effects on different people. I would be an idiot to disagree with that... my point was that if you are going to start claiming this as one of the reasons doping is bad, then you have to do the same with everything else that effects different people more than others such as training, diet, genetics, climate, etc. The fact that some people see bigger advantages than others does nothing to strengthen the argument against doping...one could argue that it levels the playing field since those that see the biggest improvements may have had the biggest deficits in terms of however you want to measure the increase. Using TiMans example of someone who has a hermatocrit of 40 using EPO to get it to 50+ is a perfect example (after all it isn't "fair" that I am stuck with 40 while the next guy has 50, if we both have 50 that is more "fair", one could argue). Argue doping is bad because it poses a health risk, it is illegal (and therefore has a criminal element), not everyone has access, etc.; those are airtight arguments (or at least they can stand on their own). Just my $.02.

Oh.....well....yes I can agree with that.

TiMan

31-08.-2005, 06:40 AM	#101
gunn Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 21	Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping thanks for the info and I think it's very relevant to the discussion. I hardly think you can really live in the contemporary world for the last fifty years and not at least experiment with some drug. The recreational ones I tried were never as bad as advertised. But then again, I once saw Marion Jones lose at Hayward Field and be swarmed by the press while the winner was ignored -- Inger Miller's mother said, "that isn't right." Considering the victims, the non-cheaters is gut-wrenching. Minor disagreement, Armstrong, it seems, was, to be fair, still a phenom specimen, cyclist-triathlete, without drugs in the equation. A guy with a story much like yours once told me: "If everybody is clean, he wins; if everybody is taking drugs, he wins." We will never know many answers to our questions like this, but I suspect more information on them will be forthcoming. Thanks again.

08-07.-2006, 06:42 AM

#102

helmutRoole2

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by djrocker257

sigh.......it just never stops, does it.

Nope, it never does because people just want to believe. It's a great story. Saddly, at it's foundation, the LA fantasy is just that. Dope was likely the cause of his cancer, in post cancer he was physically much different and then, once back on the dope, he then became a Tour rider rather than a one-day guy.

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08-07.-2006, 06:45 AM

#103

helmutRoole2

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by TiMan

The fact that Armstrong went out of his way to see Fararri on at least 10 occasions and for days at a time is proof enough for me.......Fararri only knows doping and how to beat tests....he doesn't know anything else that isn't also know by every rider, physiologist and trainer out there.

Armstrong was caught with a corticosteroid in his system. This stuff is one of the better drugs available for doping, besides epo, steroids and testosterone.

Ask yourself this bro...why the H did Armstrong go out of his way to see Ferarri, doping guru that he is.....he is an American cyclist that lives in the states and in Spain and not Italty.

Yep.

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29-07.-2006, 09:53 AM

#104

britbox

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Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping

Quote:

Originally Posted by helmutRoole2

Yep.

This was a great thread and I for one do happen to believe Ti-Man's angle.

Then again, I think all the top guys take stuff. All this "never tested positive" means nothing. Riis never tested positive. Roche never tested positive. Ullrich never tested positive (when racing) even Millar never tested positive.
"testing positive" and doping are too completely different issues my friends. Doping is ingrained in cycling at the highest level.

Remember Chiappucci - another also-ran until EPO kicked in. Suddenly became a serious contender overnight like many other Dutch and italian riders in the late 80s / early 90s. Gianni Bugno - top rider, now with really serious health issues due to doping.

Lemond? Greg's a bit of different kettle of fish. Lemond had the highest ever recorded VO2 Max for a cyclist ever - (92). Even Big Mig's best was 88. Only a cross country skiier has recorded higher than lemond. Also Cyrille Guimard said lemond was the only guy who could compete without preparation (read into that what you will).

I don't know if Greg was clean but the likelihood is he was probably far cleaner than any other guy competing for top honours. As he said himself, he went from winning the Tour in 1990 with #1 ranked team in Z, to the team being demolished with the onslaught of EPO the following year.

LA was nowhere in the TDF pre-cancer. I only watched a video on youtube the other today when Big Mig caught and passed him in the TT.
LA said he saw Ferrari about training methods? 10 times or so? What does Doctor Ferrari know about training methods - has he ever got on a bike? No, he is a well known doper. I don't ask my local smack dealer for training tips. Anyway, I thought Carmicheal was the training guru.

29-07.-2006, 10:28 AM	#105
mitosis Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: east coast australia Posts: 1,327	Re: My experince with drugs and blood doping Just getting it on my subscription list.

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