Etiquette on forums.

Carrera

This is why the French seem to have a point. In France you can adhere to any religion you wish and express any point of view you may hold. If you want to promote the Jewish, Christian or Moslem faith, this is perfectly O.K.
But the French believe you can only enjoy these freedoms in a secular society where government and politics must follow republican ideals.
Now, what would happen if I travelled to Iran, stood up on a soapbox and began to critizice Islam? You guessed it, I'd be stoned and called an infidel and that would be the end of Carrera.
However, technically speaking, you should be able to make such open criticisms in Europe, specifically in France. Yet Blair is selling out (as is always the case). Blair is so worried about upsetting religious sentiment, he seeks to ban free criticism of religion and make it a criminal offence. In fact, Blair has stated his dream is to create a Christian/Islamic society.
So, where does that leave rational people and free expression?

Hypnospin

actualy, in france muslim headgear is prohibited at public schools yet crucifixes (as long as they are "small in size") are permitted.
this a recent development, and explained away by reason of preventing a public expression of faith that would lead to inciting a unified "extremism" of this target group.

davidmc

something to ponder.

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__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

EoinC

Hmmm. I guess that there is secularism and secularism. I, personally, don't have any problem with people wearing Headgear / Crucifixes / Buddha's / Stars of David / Mushy Banana's or anything else that they feel is important to them.
It seems to me that the French Government is trying to make its own brand of secularism into a religion. Since the French Government has decided that it will not allow a certain group of the community to wear the adornments specified by their religion, are they also going to start telling them what food they have to eat in order to show that they adhere to the tenets of secular society? I'm a vegetariarian atheist tosser living in a predominantly Muslim Country and I'm allowed to wear a Mushy Banana (in obiesance to my strong belief in nothing in particular) if I want. How advanced and free-thinking is a secular Country which won't allow schoolgirls to wear headscarves in accordance with their belief? Sounds more like a case of the Brownshirts to me. All secular societies are equal, but some are more equal than others? You will be secular and show that you are secular, or we shall cut you up and offer you to the God of Secularity?

EoinC

The other weird thing about this is that, by banning Muslim Headgear from Public Schools, they are more or less forcing Muslim females to attend seperate schools, otherwise known as the 'dreaded' Madrassah. Kind of self-defeating, I would have thought.

Carrera

Basically, I support what the French are trying to do but I agree they have a strange way of defending secularism. Seems to me like it makes far more sense to inititate citizenship classes for everybody within schools and let girls wear a basic shawl if that's what they want to do. It's no big deal.
The citizenship classes would be there to teach the whole idea of democracy and tolerance of different points of view. I suppose the idea of a free society is to express what you believe openly but not to intimidate, demonise or threaten other people who don'[t happen to share the same view.
The problem we have with moslems in this country has been caused by weak-willed politicians or lawyers such as Cherie Blair. It was Mrs Blair who insisted that human rights laws allowed one particular girl to cover herself from head to toe at school, rather than simply wear the basic veil. She was essentially lining her pockets with the proceeds of the case and siding with an extreme radical Islamic group that had supported the girl's protest. Obviously, action such as this undermines secular values and drives rifts between people. Heavens knows why the Yanks were paying 1000 dollars a seat in Washington to watch the wicked witch (Cherie Blair) give one of her speeches.

Carrera

One thing to bear in mind, though is this: Would you be able to stand up on a platform in the streets and openly criticize Islam in a moslem country? I doubt it. Would you be able to criticize George W Bush standing on a platform in New York? Sure, thing. Many people would even applaud you.
Would you be able to criticize secularism openly on the streets of Paris? Absolutely.
Will you be able to criticize Islam six months from now in the streets of London? I seriously doubt it as it will soon be against the law.
Which option is the more tolerant: secularism or religious rule?

EoinC

Carrera, don't get me wrong. I'm all for the secular State. As an atheist, why would I be otherwise? It appears, however, that one person's view of what it takes to make a State secular is not necessarily that of another. My view of a secular state is one where people are free to believe what they want and no part of the Government apparatus will take an active part in promoting a belief, other than a tenet of tolerance. The 'right' to criticise a religion or group within a society has to be tempered as it opens the way for incitment of hatred (ask Jewish people how they feel about anti-semitism).
GWB is a politician and, in a 'free' Nation, I would expect the citizens to be able to publically criticize their politicians. This is not always the case in 'secular' Nations (ie. being secular does not always imply being free).

EoinC

I agree, Carrera. Tolerance does not come naturally. It has to be taught and promoted in order for it to become and remain a central pillar of a free society.