Etiquette on forums.

EoinC

Probably for the same reason that the Pope was never "screaming into the television" when the IRA were setting off bombs all over the place. They are living in a secular Nation. They have condemned the actions and pointed out that these people are not true believers of their faith. What else do you expect them to do? They do not own these nutters any more than the Baptist Church owns the Ku Klux Klan.
I live and work in a Country which is predominantly Muslim. The people around me were horrified by the actions of these extremists. Should they feel responsible for them? No, why would they? These people have nothing to do with them. The only connection is they read the same book. Pretty tenuous basis for establishing share of the blame.
In the case of the clergy who carried out child abuse, the formal Church had a responsibility because they were the direct supervisors (employers) of these people and placed them in positions which facilitated the crimes. They exacerbated their culpability by being aware of the crimes and covering them up. If you choose to use this as an alegory, is (for the sake of argument) an Anglican Deacon required to "scream into the television" when a Roman Catholic is exposed as having carried out child abuse? I'm not quite sure what this screaming is supposed to achieve.

Carrera

There has to be a careful balance drawn between not blaming inncocent religious people and not dismissing religion as a factor.
Maybe you could compare the Christianity of David Koresh with that Islam of Bin Laden. Both are militant versions of a belief system.
However the case may be, I myself don't want to live in a religious society and, like it or lump it, that's where we're heading (maybe in Europe too).
The U.S. is becoming far less secular and christianised, while England seems to be turning towards Islam. Certain branches of Islam, I admit, are non-militant but, at the same time, Islamic militancy is growing in this country. I read the other day how yet another mullah proclaimed England will become an Islamic State and the Jews in England will be wiped out (together with gays who are apparently to be thrown off Big Ben). And the important thing to bear in mind is that the same mullah recommended death as well for all non-moslems (or infidels). Yet these are the characters who seem to be rising in the hierarchy, not the moderates.
I think you either choose to be a rational, secular society or put your faith in religion (which has never inspired progress).
This rise of Islam in England makes me feel as uneasy as many Europeans who have commented on the theme.

Chance3290

If I am murdering in the name of my GOD, and you are a man who claims to represent the teachings of that GOD, (ie priest, mullah, etc) and you are not denoucing my actions, people tend to think, rightly or wrongly, that you condone my murderous actions.
I agree with you completely that Muslim people, in general, have no responsiblity or requirements to say anything about the terrorists. But those who say they represent the teachings of Mohammad do have a duty to defend their beliefs and condemn actions that go against the Koran.
Silence speaks volumes.

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Please, don't MOO at the cows. It only confuses them.

Hypnospin

met with the deafening silence from clergy, ministers and
(to borrow a generalization from the attached quote) christian

"people in general"

(for the most part, with a growing notable exception)

in the us, as the bush wars continue in the name of...

davidmc

True. Silence sometimes equates to acquiescence/condoning.

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I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

EoinC

We must have been following different news channels, because I did see Muslim clergy speaking out against the actions. They have not been silent, and nor have Muslim laypeople. What else do you require of them?

FredC

Your posting has got more holes in it than a tramps vest.

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The media is a self perpetuating publicity stunt.

davidmc

I almost choked on my brie ("liberal's" food-cheese)

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

Carrera

It's true that moslems condemned the London bombings e.t.c. Even so, somebody pointed out that the condemnations bore little similarity with the rage and intolerance moslems expressed towards Salmon Rushdi - when he wrote a book criticizing Islam.
If I recall Rushdi essentially feared for his life.
Evidently Islamic society feels more outraged by attacks against Islamic doctrine than over attacks against secular society and this is part of the problem. Probably the Chinese have understood this from the beginning which is why they don't allow mosques and Imans to become established within Bejing.

Carrera

To answer that question, seems top me that, Muhammad Ali was both a moslem and an American. He opposed certain fundamental tenets of the U.S. government (i.e. war in Vietnam) but that never stopped him being loyal to his country and the sense of shared American values.
Ali was kind of unique in how he went about changing things within the U.S. Essentially he worked within the system in order to try and improve the situation of black Americans and he condemned violence outright. He wouldn't even associate with some of the militant Black Panthers and his Nation Of Islam Church, at the time, was peaceful.
When people saw Ali giving money to Jewish causes, hugging black and white children and speaking out against war and violence, it promoted a positive message for his religion which is what makes Ali such a good role-model for black and Asian people to follow.

EoinC

Throw me a bone here, Carrera. How do I distinguish between someone being a good role model for "black and Asian people to follow" and someone just being a good role model for Caucasians to follow? My wife is Asian and I need to be able to tell her not to follow good role models that are intended for White Folk, but that she needs to be looking to Ali for something more suitable. My Daughters are 1/2 Asian / 1/2 Caucasian - do you have a seperate group of role models intended to fit the bill for them?
I have a problem with these distinctions you keep laying down on the table, intended or otherwise. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned(?), but I've kind of grown used to seeing people as...people.

EoinC

Please confirm that it was the same individuals who both condemned the London bombings and expressed outrage at Salman Rashdie. If they are not the same people, then you are making a generalisation based upon a very small sampling group.
If the queen was to make a speech condemning the London bombings and a football hooligan was to scream into a camera that he wants to beat up Dutch people on the next Football tour to Europe, it would be a fallacy to argue that the 'English People' on the one hand quietly condemn the bombings whilst, on the other hand, want to cause death and destruction to the Netherlands.
There are people (the vast majority, I would assume) who abhor the bombings. There are, presumably (since the bombings did happen), people who are thrilled with the bombings. Instead of pushing so hard to make people prove to your satisfaction that they abhor the bombings, why not just focus on dealing with those who are definitely on the side of the bombers.
During WW2, in many of our Countries, people of German, Italian or Japanese descent were automatically assumed to be against the Allies and were generally incarcerated for the term of the War. You are laying down a path whereby you require one portion of your Nation to prove that they abhor the bombings, but you are changing the goalpost position on what it takes for that proof to be acceptable. It started out that they had to state that they were horrified by the bombings. Now, apparently, unless they are "screaming into the television cameras" (Chance3290), their display is inadequate and they should be regarded as abetting the crime.
Can I apply the same to you, Carrera & Chance? Unless I see you screaming into a television camera, I am not to believe that your abhorrence of the bombing is real?
It is very easy to segregate society, human nature seeks scapegoats and readily apportions blame, but it takes a continued effort to conjoin it. Your easy generalisations serve to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Still, it's your Country, so do with it what you will.

Carrera

I didn't intend to give the impression that moslems haven't condemned the bombings. But let's be honest here. We haven't seen any major manifestations of public anger from the Islamic communities. I mean, not so long ago we were seeing violent demonstrations outside schools and theatres as moslem communities protested over the right to wear extreme Islamic dress within schools or protested over a play that criticized Islam.
O.K. I do take your point. It's never been my intention to blame groups of people in one sweep. The truth is I blame the politicians far more for the current state of affairs.
At the end of the day, though, the real point I've been trying to get across is we are supposed to be a secular country. If an artist can't stage a play, a comedian can't tell a joke or an author can't criticize a religion, where are we heading? I definitely admire the French for sticking to their guns and clamping down on religious extremism and making it clear they are a secular, democratic, free-speaking nation.
If moslems don't like secularism and liberalism, as many a Dutch politician has stated, they should leave. This is my view, although I know it's a monority one.

davidmc

I'm w/ you on this one Carerra That goes for any immigrant. Don't move to a country THEN question its policies. Do the research first, before you immigrate. I get the feeling that alot of these people were well aware of the societies standards that they emigrated to but, just feigned ignorance to further their goals of an Islamic expansion The Christians have a similar manifesto of world transformation. See my Sig. Religion sure does complicate things. It is worth noting that Muslims think Jesus was a 1st rate prophet. My religion is "science", brought about by "human understanding". I guess that would make me a dumb ass

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )