Page 8 - Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel

14-07.-2005, 02:06 AM	#106
Eldrack Registered User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,065	Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler Hincapies form is amazing at the moment, awesome TT and he's climbing with the top men too. Feel sorry for Jens Voigt, finishing outside the time limit. He must have really nailed himself in his breakaway to get the yellow jersey then trying to keep it yesterday.

14-07.-2005, 02:51 AM

#107

limerickman

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankster

I am surprised to hear constant talks about how Discovery is weakened and tired. Are we watching the same race? Big George and 3 other Discos are up there with Lance, over the climb while shelling out climbers like Heras and Mayo, riding solid tempo and bringing everything under control. They didn't even have much reason to chase down Botero and Vino, who are still 3-4 minutes down. They could have left it to CSC or IB boys. Whenever Disco has 5 teammates on top of the climb while other teams have at most 2 riders in the group is a GREAT day for Disco, and it's very difficult to spin it any other way.

I think Disco and Lance are now in defense mode. They have a solid lead and now they will seat back and let the race for second sort itself out.

Brazillian soccer team used to say: "you can score as many goals as you *can*, but we can always score as many goals as we *want*".

Right now Disco can paraphrase it as "try to get as much time out of as you physically *can*, but remember that we can get back as much time as we *want*". The work done in the front is absolutely incredible. Stage 8 was a fluke, a bluff, or something else, but it certainly wasn't a reflection of their fitness level.

I don't think JH or anyone else is suggesting that DC are weakened.
The question is - is all this work that they're doing, going to affect them as the Tour progresses ?
The fact is that cycling at the front of the peloton for past two days, over that profile, is tough going.
They are going to be tired - as is the rest of the peloton.
If they have pushed to hard at this point - maybe they might have over done things and are more tired relative to the other teams in the peloton.

If it is the case that they are tired and their opponents are less tired, then the strategy employed today where Vino and Botero forced DC to chase will have worked.
If they're not as tired as their opponents, then it will be business as usual.

14-07.-2005, 02:58 AM

#108

tcklyde

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldrack

Hincapies form is amazing at the moment, awesome TT and he's climbing with the top men too.

Feel sorry for Jens Voigt, finishing outside the time limit. He must have really nailed himself in his breakaway to get the yellow jersey then trying to keep it yesterday.

Yeah, that was terrible for Voigt. And a bit unlike him... Also, I noticed Karpets finished very late. Strange.

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14-07.-2005, 02:59 AM

#109

Ullefan

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Or maybe they will just recieve 'special pink tape' and be alright...

14-07.-2005, 03:38 AM	#110
MJtje Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,125	Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler Armstrong was unruffled. "If his (vino) objective was to win the stage, then mission accomplished. If the objective was to blow up the Discovery team, then mission not accomplished," he said. Spot on.....

14-07.-2005, 03:48 AM

#111

limerickman

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJtje

Armstrong was unruffled. "If his (vino) objective was to win the stage, then mission accomplished. If the objective was to blow up the Discovery team, then mission not accomplished," he said.

Spot on.....

Mission was accomplished : he won the stage : a marvellous stage and glorious stage.

If his mission was to make DC work hard : he did it : they were forced to chase.

If his mission was to make DC expend too much energy in chasing him

nly time wil tell.

14-07.-2005, 04:01 AM

#112

jhuskey

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

nly time wil tell.

That is the point I am trying to make. No team can withstand constant attacks. How many will be launched is unknown.
When they are launched is of course critical.
I just want everyone to recognize the possibility that DC may get out ran at some point if they have to chase down too many breakaways.
All is takes is one bad day for one team and a good day for another.
This is not a slam on Discovery, I am just trying to be objective at this point and consider the possibilities.
They did not devastate the entire field today but did ride a good stage.
I would never have believe someone like Rasmussen would be in second place at this point

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14-07.-2005, 05:15 AM	#113
Rudy Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: atlanta, GA Posts: 653	Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler Rassmussen came out of nowhere. Is this guy for real? At least I don't think he's a player when it comes to the ITT. Noticed where all of LA's main rivals from the past few years? all are wayyy back.

14-07.-2005, 05:27 AM

#114

thebluetrain

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

nly time wil tell.

What about the energy Vino expended in order to make Discovery chase?

14-07.-2005, 05:35 AM

#115

jhuskey

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluetrain

What about the energy Vino expended in order to make Discovery chase?

That's the point, you send another breakaway out in stage 12(someone else). The problem is they need to be someone that DC will consider a threat.
If it is someone 15 minutes back they could care less.
It has to be someone they will chase to keep the pressure on and of course DC wants to set a rabid pace on the peloton to keep them worn down.
If Lim disgarees with my perspective I am sure he will respond.

Vino does have talent for quick recovery as does Lance.

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14-07.-2005, 06:01 AM

#116

Crankster

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluetrain

What about the energy Vino expended in order to make Discovery chase?

EXACTLY.

I think it was a relatively easy day for Disco. 26 people finished in chasing group. Some, like Kloden and Guerini were actually dropped on the climb but re-joined on the descent I believe. Discos had 4 riders in that group, all of which stayed at the front and easily limited 3+ minute deficit to 1:10 on the descent. Illeas Balears, CSC and T-Mobile had 3 riders each. Other teams had 2 riders or less. Sort of tells you which team was suffering and which team was feeling good, doesn't it? Yesterday was a much harder day for Disco. They didn't even have to work hard today, they could have given Vino and Botero their 2:30, it would only encourage in-fighting between CSC, Phonak, T-Mobile and IB for podium spots.

14-07.-2005, 06:35 AM

#117

musette

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

If his mission was to make DC work hard : he did it : they were forced to chase.

If his mission was to make DC expend too much energy in chasing him

nly time wil tell.

That Vino went on such a long breakaway is not the only way DC would have had to expend energy to chase down a breakaway. Surely, with the stage win available, there would have been certain climbers willing to do this other than Vino. That way, Vino would have saved his energy to help JU, if (and that's the if) JU winning the GC were TM's sole objective.

Don't you think that people will try for breakways even without Vino doing that -- people who are good climbers and also somewhat lower in GC (like Vino)?

TM's strategy is so misguided it is not funny for JU.

14-07.-2005, 07:05 AM

#118

limerickman

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by musette

We can speculate how TM (or any other team) could make DC work.
Vino went away - DC had to pursue.
It's immaterial as to who goes away, so long as DC are made to work.

DC worked to keep the breakaway minimised.

Did Vino destroy himself for tomorrows stage ? Maybe.
Although he might have made DC work harder than they wanted today and perhaps made them go over their limit.

Only time will tell.

14-07.-2005, 07:14 AM

#119

Bjørn P.Dal

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankster

Some, like Kloden and Guerini were actually dropped on the climb but re-joined on the descent I believe.

It was obvious that guerini went down to help kloden.
As to work, disco had to work harder than if no one was in front.

14-07.-2005, 07:21 AM

#120

limerickman

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Re: Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankster

Did you actually see today's stage, live ?
Probably not.

DC worked very hard at the front tpday to limit the time gap to Vino.
I watched it live today.
That stage today was tougher far tougher than yesterday.

Don't only take my word for it here's what Eric Breukink had to say about it
"Today's stage is the tougher test tahn yesterday (10) : Rasmussen is climbing well but today will be tougher no doubt"
Sean kelly "today is a tougher parcour and two hor category climbs and one cat 1 climb make it more difficult for DC to control as well as for LA's challenge to attack, than yesterday's stage.
Given that it's not a mountain top finish, DC will have to work harder to control this stage".

Every rider suffered out there today.

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