Stage 11 TDF :Courchevel - Briancon Spoiler

Crankster

I am sooo happy for Vino, his second TdF stage, similar type of stage - breakaway, downhill with flat finish.

The fact that Vino was playing games with Botero, wasting valuable time indicates that he probably didn't care about his GC position as much as he did about the stage win. I hope he attacks again!! And Again! And again! Such a thrill to watch him ride! Without him this Tour would be so boring.



Forced to chase, but almost too easy for them. They practically let them go on the uphill, and just cruised downhill. A big man like Hincapie going downhill can gain so much more time on two riders. He didn't even have to pedal most of the time. This was a recovery day for team Discovery.




We'll see tomorrow, and then Saturday and Sunday. But the energy spent chasing the small breakaway was very minimal. Disco guys were just playing with them. They recovered from yesterday's "hard day" - today was very easy. Tomorrow is another "easy" to maybe "moderate" if anyone tries anything funny. Then it's easy again. They will be well-rested for weekend, that's for sure.

Incredible.

musette

Ditto, of course.

This is what Graham Watson indicated:

"Mountain stages in the Tour de France don't go much easier for Lance than this one today. I really do not think he even broke sweat on the climbs of the Col de la Madeleine or Col de la Telegraphe, and maybe not even on the mighty Col du Galibier, this year's highest climb. His Discovery team did the work for him really - ok, Lance had to actually pedal all the way - setting a perfect tempo in a so-gentle pursuit of Alexandre Vinokourov, who broke away on the first mountain and was still away in Briancon where he won the second Tour stage-win of his career. Lance and his team really gifted Vinokourov his win, for they barely raised themselves from their seats as Vinokourov toiled away in front. They actually had him within 25-seconds on the Madeleine, but then seemed to deliberately let him go, a gesture that re-ignited rumours that Vinokourov might be riding in the blue and grey colours of Discovery next year. We'll have to wait a few weeks to know that for sure, but it presented the Tour with another twist of irony that such a ride was possible just one day after Vinokourov's relative collapse at Courchevel; one day Lance is the executioner, the next day he is the giver of life…or at least hope."

Ullefan

And we take Graham's word as gospel for sure.

limerickman

Did you watch the stage ?
Did you ?

I am beginning to think that you and LeBleuTrain are just re-heating PR tripe
for DC.



Graham Watson : a photographer.

LA didn't break sweat : so them images of him and his team pedalling like crazy on the Madeleine, Telegraph and Galibier was acting ?

yeah right Graham (cheerleader)




Gifted the win ?
This is preposterous : who cycled Vino's bike ?

If people actaully watched the stage instead of re-heating PR waffle : you would have seen that the breakaway on the Madeleine included six riders.
The six were whittled down to three as Phonak and Vino worked together.
As they descended the Madeleine and ascended the Telegraph,
the time gap on the Maleine was approx 1min : the time gap extended out to
2mins on the Telegragh : hovered there and then increased to 3mins at the summit of the Galibier.
By the finish it came back to 1min+.
DC pedalled like crazy to close the gap.

Or maybe that wasn't Popovych and Hincapie bursting their nuts at 100+ cadence.



Or to put it another way - "I'm Graham Watson, I know that most of the audience I'm speaking to, haven't a clue and believe the hype"

Vino won the stage - fair and square.

limerickman

Today (stage 11) wasn't easy : frankly you're talking rubbish.

How can a stage that includes two hor category climbs be easy ?
By definition, it's not easy.

When you started posting here, I thought that perhaps you might have had some insight to the sport.

musette

When you are a "Community Member" of the board, I would have thought you would show a bit more respect for a diversity of analysis, including analysis different from your own vision of the cycling world. "Analysis" extends to more than "LA is so amazing, he must be doping", obviously.

Also, as most readers know, the cadence used by DC domestiques isn't necessarily indicative of their going to the limit of their efforts. That's because at least, as most readers know, one of LA's techniques (which he has obviously been sharing with his team -- not just TdF, but people like Stijn Devolder in ITT in Three Days at De Panne) is to use a high cadence style. I'm sorry I had to clarify that obvious point, but I guess I do for some readers. Ah, limerickman, good, I see you've recently adjusted your argument on high cadence in response to my remark.

mitosis

LOL. I was wondering when Lance would gift a win this year. Hahaha.

musette

Hincapie muses on how DC kept Vino to a certain lead:

"We didn't want to let Vino back in the race. He's a tough competitor, but he had a bad day yesterday," said Hincapie, who finished the stage in 24th place. "We didn't want him to get too much time. We let them go, and wanted to keep them within a minute. We knew if we did our tempo, they wouldn't get much time. A couple of guys started to get dropped, and when it was just Botero and Vino' [left], we knew it would be easier to control."

The usual DC tempo on this type of mountain stage was sufficient. Not that that tempo doesn't involve some amount of effort, but then the usual DC strategy is to keep the pace at a certain level in the mountains to dissuade attacks out of the group with LA anyhow.

The paceline: "When asked in the post race press conference if his victory today was a gift from the Discovery Channel team, Vino shot back - "You have to ask Lance.""

A nice thought by Chechu on Courcheval: "We did a good job and finally Lance, as he normally does, was able to take the jersey and to bring emotion to the race again."

limerickman

The diversity of opinion is exactly what your "analysis" lacks.

Your posts and your opinions only include DC/USPS and critical remarks about Kummer/TM.

And let me remind you - you pulled the same stunt in another internet forum where you posted entire tracts of USPS PR material, in a JAN ULLRICH FAN SITE.

So Musette you have a history with your variation of "analysis".

Of course, you are free to post opinions and views and that is welcome.

But all members here are entitled to challenge and post opposing views, within
reason and without insulting fellow members.



High cadence style.

The TV images had DC guys pedalling very quickly and very hard.
As opposed to dear old Graham Watson's (YOUR) words and I quote
"setting a perfect tempo in a so-gentle pursuit of Alexandre Vinokourov"

musette

Participating in Internet forums (and yes, thank-you for reminding me of my earliest days of advocating the removal of Zabel from the TM TdF team, which then prompted Olaf Ludwig to write a response on the TM website that certain Internet board comments advocating Zabel's removal were unfounded). Guess who I was trying to assist in making that argument -- JU! I have always believed, and still do, that JU could do better by being "harder" on certain team issues -- asking for greater loyalty instead of encouraging Kloden and Vino to have their own aspirations on days when JU falters, getting rid of Godefroot and Kummer. I suggested all those things so early on because I believed they were necessary for TM to have a better position in support of JU. Back then, I also argued for the hiring of better mountain domestiques, such as Sevilla, you might recall. Well, guess what? Zabel is off the TdF team; Godefroot is on his way out; Sevilla is hired.

And I should say that discussing USPS on a JU site was entirely appropriate, if the message was that there were a lot of things USPS was doing right and a lot of things at TM that could be improved upon to aid JU's quest for a higher placement at the TdF. Obviously, JU sees LA as his strongest competitor, and vice versa.

And I should remind everybody that limerickman made the same arguments regarding LA, and allegations of doping, the same way, on the old site. Unlike my arguments regarding the need for improvements at TM, which have all materialized, there has been no demonstration through evidence of any doping by LA. Zippo; nil; nada.

And also, making reasoned arguments in support of a given team (including by quoting a range of sources) is different from advocating a position without support. Also, a relatively gentle pursuit of Vino means that DC could be cranked up the intensity a lot more than they did. It does not mean that DC wasn't working in a very coordinated and determined way, which is what they did. It means they could have been chasing a lot harder, and, as has been shown in the past, they could have definitely pursued him more vigorously if they had felt it was necessary (which it was not, given Vino was burning so many matches and was at the GC time he was at).

limerickman

So that's why you post entire USPS/DC tracts extolling it's TDF prowess - because you're a JU fan !

musette

You have to admit that the substance of my arguments has very obviously been adopted at TM. Do you find it disappointing that your anlaysis didn't come up with the "drop Zabel" strategy which everybody has now embraced?

And the reason that I have been discussing the strength of USPS/DC at the TdF is because .... it is reality! My analysis is realism-based.

limerickman

What I would prefer is some straight talking - instead of trying to claim that you have TM's concerns at heart.

You are an LA fan.
You post insights to support LA.
That's fine and I have no difficulty with that.

As regards your view about Zabel - you were ridiculing Zabel a couple of years ago.

musette

Questioning strongly Zabel's participation in the TdF, while recognizing Zabel's PAST accomplishments as significant. I obviously made the reality-based point that Zabel is WAYYYYYY past his prime, in support of his exclusion from the TdF team. It is not ridiculing somebody to make such arguments. In fact, I included some of these arguments in this forum's thread, in which I continued to argue for the exclusion of Zabel before he was finally excluded (for good, I think, even in the event he continues with TM in some capacity).

What you don't see is that wanting JU to do better in the TdF is entirely consistent with supporting DC. As you know, even on the old forum, I was not shy in indicating that I very much supported USPS/DC as well as hoped JU would improve his performance. One can have an interest in cycling, and have multiple parties' interests in view. The world is not as compartmentalized as some might like it to be.

I continue to argue that JU should not use his diary on TM to give encouragement to efforts of Vino (this year) that do not necessarily aid JU's chances. I continue to believe, instead of thanking Kloden for being with him, JU should expect it and take it as a given in his approach to the Tour. He should demand obedience from Kloden and Vino, using the media and also using his image to the public. LA demands complete loyalty and sacrifice from his team, and JU should consider at least not encouraging rebellion through his own TdF diaries.

I do appreciate, limerickman, your reminders of some of my successful arguments that began on the other forum "a couple of years ago", as you acknowledge. The exclusion of Zabel was an obvious fix at TM; it was just difficult to see given Zabel's history of success (but it's the history part that has to be focused on).

Different posters have different styles. Some posters might like to argue "Cyclist L is on X", but have no concrete evidence to prove it, apart from Cyclist L's great performance. That is one style of "argument". Other posters like to quote from different sources when they make arguments, as support. The readers of the forum will determine for themselves who is more persuasive.