Seattle high school seeks military recruiter ban

Carrera

The fact is if your friend was treated in this way specifically due to her appearance or beliefs, she has a legal case under U.S. law. The U.S. constitution opposes racism in the same way as any European country, Australia or Britain. Such abuses if proven, usually entitle a person to compensation.
The same cannot be said for this Australian girl in Indonesia who faces 20 years in prison for possession of an extremely soft drug. There is a huge difference between suffering 24 hours humiliation and 20 years in a Thai or Indonesian jail.
Where I differ with you slightly is over this view that the woes of the Third World are all down to the West. Iran was once a global empire that invaded Europe around 400 B.C. Egypt was probably the most advanced nation on the planet thousands of years ago and even Iraq was a culturally rich, progressive civilization.
All these countries declined when they became theocracies or virtual theocracies, just as England in the Middle Ages or Russia under the Tsars when people were controlled by the churches. This is why the communists closed all the churches in Russia, recognising they had been used to keep the peasants under control and under the service of the Tsar (King).
The West encouraged Middle Eastern theocracies in order to have some kind of access to the oil in the region but the decline of these Middle Eastern nations can't simply be blamed on Europe or the U.S. and the process of decline began a long time ago.
Religion has always been employed as a tool to keep the masses in line and obedient.
I know you point out that the masses in the Middle East apparently don't have a choice as to how they are ruled but really the problem is people are being controlled by their rulers in the same way Russian peasants were by the Tsar and Clergy. If they want freedom and democracy, at some point, they have to go out and get it themselves, since it can't be imposed by Bush or freely granted by the regimes already in power. If they don't go out and embrace democracy, that isn't my fault and it isn't your fault, or anyone else's fault.
"You are in someone else's country, you don't have the same rights as the citizens, whatever they may or may not be."
Your words and not mine.
I think we should clarify that if someone comes to the U.K. there is automatic access to the NHS, social security funding, access to compensation claims, housing, welfare and the works. Now they even plan to supply free university funding for foreign students.
By contrast, if you or I travel to either Europe, the U.S. or the Third World, we have about as much chance of getting a free State education or no-strings-attached welfare, as I have of knocking out Lennox Luis in a boxing ring.
But here is my point:
To me it seems the Australians put their hands in their pockets after the Tsunami disaster and gave a heck of a lot of money to Indonesia out of the goodness of their hearts and basic generosity. Yet when the chips are down, the western tourist who gets into strife in these countries has no access to compensation claims, justice, decent legal representation or the benefit of the doubt. The case itself sounded to me like a set-up under a kangaroo court and the only way to hit back is to take your tourism elsewhere (even Israel sounds like a more civilized alternative).

Carrera

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiap...7/corby.appeal/
She has been held in a Bali jail since her arrest at an airport in Denpasar last October.
Her verdict and sentence have generated outrage in Australia, where the government is trying to negotiate her returning home to serve her prison sentence.
The case has triggered threats against Indonesian diplomatic missions in Australia and Indonesia. A recent survey among Australians found 90 percent believed Corby to be innocent.
Even actor Russell Crowe has jumped in, asking how his government could let Corby "rot away in a foreign prison."
Corby has maintained her innocence and insisted that the drugs found in one of her unlocked bags were planted by baggage handlers in Australia. The scene in the courtroom turned chaotic Friday when the guilty verdict was read.
Corby appeared confused after the verdict and sentence were read, but after conferring with her interpreter, reality sank in and she glared at prosecutors.
She turned toward her mother, Rosleigh Rose, and said, "Mum, it's OK," before breaking down in tears.
Corby's sister, Mercedes, screamed shrilly at the judges: "It's not all right! How dare you!"
As she was being led away, Schapelle broke free from guards and hugged her mother.
"Schapelle, you will come home. Our government will bring you home," her mother vowed after guards separated them.

darkboong

AFAICT she has no recourse, the US is perfectly within it's rights to deny entry to the country. This may sound facetious, but I figure Tony Blair is too far up Bush's wazoo that he wouldn't do anything about it anyways.



Being denied the right to work is a pretty big one IMO Carrera, which is in effect what has happened the lass I mentioned. I can't stress out enough that whatever you or I may think about Cannabis the world's leaders have decided that they know better. In this country a judge has recently ruled that you can't use medicinal usage as a defence, and promptly sentenced four folks, all of whom had serious medical conditions that have been proven to respond very well to cannabis treatment.



Well, actually that's not true, because I don't subscribe to that view at all. However over the last 100 years, which is what most people care about right now, the West has kicked the poor sods from pillar to post.



Leave em to make their own minds up and respect their right to do so then. Doing stuff like installing the Shah of Iran then setting up Saddam and having him assault Iran after they get rid of the sod is *not* the way to win friends and influence opinion in a positive way.



It's a hard fact of life dude and I don't expect it to change.



You do get "free" education in Europe too. The US, no, in fact the UK has moving away from the European model towards the US model for sometime now. As for the third world : They can barely afford to eat, education ain't gonna be high on the agenda there, although it will almost certainly be high on the wishlist.



So do it... Kangeroo courts are not unknown, and you'll note that I did leave the door open there for you to come back and say that the evidence was planted. Does happen, and it's dispicable, but unfortunately it's a hard world out there and that kind of malarky does appear to happen in this country too.

Apparently many Israelis spend their holidays in Kashmir by preference... Go figure...

Carrera

I think it's more a case of the old proverb concerning the golden rule:
"He who has the gold makes the rules."
It's not so much the case that the West is responsible for the poverty and stagnation in the Third World but more a case of being predators in the face of weakness and disadvantage.
In the natural world, a limping tiger is likely to be attacked by a stronger animal in the jungle.
Let me give you an example:
When the Russian peasants and exploited workers rose up against the Tsar and Church and formed the Red Army, there was immediate intervention from western countries such as Britain and the U.S. who sided with the Whites (forces still loyal to the Tsar and Church). However, the Red Army was too determined (much like the Viet Cong) and, in the end, western countries gave up and the Bolsheviks (Communists) became established. Only then, after the deaths of millions of Russians through starvation, war and famine had taken place.
However, the Middle East has never had such movements whereby people questioned religious control by corrupt regimes and made some kind of effort to improve their lot. People still adhere to religious dogma and conservatism so the Middle East is stuck in a quagmire and the average man on the street blames the West. Meantime, western countries have been encouraging (not usually actively enforcing) the whole process of religious conservatism in Arab States since they know full well religion is the best means of controlling the masses (just as the Russian Tsars used it to keep peasants and workers in their place).
The worrying trend is that now Bush and Blair are introducing religion into our respective countries and Bush relied on the Christian religious vote to get him into power. When Bush lectures, he frequently refers to God, shining palaces, heaven and redemption e.t.c. This is language the less educated Americans can relate to, black and white, good and bad, e.t.c.
Asked why he voted for Bush, one American redneck replied:
"He (Bush) reads the word of God. he understands."
The way I see it, Bush is attemting to control the American masses via Christian Fundamentalism and New Labour is actively encouraging Islam. Blair stated one or two times that his vision is one of Christians and Moslems living in harmonious bliss in one country (contrary to the secularism endorsed by France). This is a worrying development when religion seems so favoured by politicians and the masses are casting votes for Parties who speak in simplistic terms of black and white, good guys and bad guys e.t.c.

darkboong

I don't think History reflects that at all, and it is certainly not the case today. The Shah of Iran got overthrown for example, and Iran (was/is) moving towards a more secular society. Iran appears to be more progressive in this regard than Saudi Arabia and Kuwait to pick two well known examples. Iran is also unusual for have a relatively decentralised powerbase, it has moved a long way from the Western backed unelected Tyrant model.



Two seperate points, and both are relevant to Western society. How about Utah ? Witness the Christian Fundamentalists blaming Muslims for all the violence in the world while advocating their extermination, we have even seen people come out with that trash on this here Soapbox...

There is a hell of a lot more to Arab culture and society than the rather narrow view that gets pushed by apologists and politicians trying to justify a war. If you haven't already, I strongly suggest that you take a look at some Arab media, Al-Jazeera is a fairly easy place to start (they have a English website).



It's worth keeping in mind that people who advocate wars of aggression on countries that are not a threat to them are not devout Christians by definition. Bush harnessed the votes of a bunch of reactionary savages, not Christians.

Agreed about it being a worrying development.

Carrera

I have mixed views with regard to Moslems. I'm fully aware that it would be ridiculous to class all Moslems as terrorists. Muhammad Ali is a devout Moslem but interprets his beliefs with plenty of common sense whle also being surprisingly tolerant of catholics and Jews. In fact, Ali ate in Jewish restaurants, had many Jewish friends and donated considerable amounts of his money to Jewish Synagogues that risked closure in New York.
But the problem is, mixed up with moderate Moslems you have many fanatics and I definitely draw the line when Moslems migrate to this country and then try to dicate how the rest of us should live. I refer to death threats being made against politicians, theatre producers, picketing of schools and even extreme situations such as the killing of a Dutch artist in Holland.
In my area, the authorities are now going to spend 3 million pounds on yet another mosque and, to be frank, I'm opposed to such policies. I oppose all of this because my faith lies in secularism, tolerance and technology to solve global problems, not religions.
Yes, I accept there are very many peaceful Moslems but we also have thousands of immigrants from Islamic countries who don't accept free speech, believe women are inferior to men (against all scientific research on the subject) and I heard Moslem teachers state gays and lesbians should get the death penalty.
It seems to me that in this country, the wrong kind of Islam is being encouraged to take root into society and I note the Government wants to make it illegal to criticize religious beliefs.

darkboong

I draw the line for all religious nuts telling me how to live. I am an Athesist.



That stuff happens routinely with Christian nutjobs too. The attacks on Abortion clinics and doctors for example. For that reason I don't think that it is fair to single out Muslims for that complaint, I would actually broaden the complaint.



I am opposed to that kind of thing too. The cynical part of me doubts that the authorities would have done that unless they felt concerned about the way Muslims are being villainised.



Sadly lots of people share that belief, but I can't say that I have found it to be any more prevalent amongst Muslims or their teachers in this country.



I don't think that the "wrong kind" of Islam is being encouraged to take root at all. Quite the reverse is true in my opinion and experience.

As for the government making it illegal to critique religious beliefs, I suspect it is so Tony Blair can declare himself to be the Son of God and therefore his word is Law.

davidmc

Yes, I believe in rational thought myself. It is sad that our politicians, at this time, choose to cater to the lowest common denominator-patriarchal mythology . I guess if you are born a man, such as myself, you've got it made. I choose not to cater to mythology. ESPECIALLY when people are being killed based on it's tenet's

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

Carrera

I don't think we widely disagree. I take your point about Islam not being the only religion to harbour fanatics. In earlier posts, I referred to the fact that the Christians may have been responsible for a fire in Rome that killed far more people than 9/11. Nero had the Christians rounded up and thrown to wild beasts in the arena, sawn in half and denied all rights. Amongs the victims were peaceful Christians but you can bet some of them really had intended to bring about Armageddon. Likewise the Jewish sects were causing problems around that period.
In modern times you had David Koresh who supervised beatings in his remote Texan ranch before the FBI raided the place. There had been reports of child abuse, stocking of firearms and a planned terrorist attack. Koresh believed he was the son of God.
Where I disagree with you is I do think the wrong kind of Islam is taking root in this country since there have been so many accounts of these problems. Even George Galloway needed police protection during the election. And if you take a look at Holand, the Dutch have been having their share of problems with Islamic extremism, lack of tolerance for Dutch liberal values and the age-old custom in Holland of free speech. The Dutch are so upset that many of them have been leaving the country for New Zealand and are fed up with the E.U. as a whole.
I have no problems with Islam, Christianity or Buddhism, Krishna or whatever so long as the people who espouse these religions don't try to dictate what the rest of us can, or cannot say, in a supposedly free country. If deeply religious immigrants don't accept free speech or criticism, as some Dutch politicians stated, then they should leave and live outside of Europe. This is my view basically.

Carrera

The jailing of Schapelle Corby for 20 years due to cannabis has sparked a diplomatic crisis between Indonesia and Australia. The Indonesian Embassy apparently became the target of a biological attack, while threatening letters and e-mails have bombarded the Embassy. The Prime Minister John Howard stated:

"Quite apart from the murderous criminality of doing something like this and the indifference and contempt to human life that it displays, it won't achieve the objective. It will have the opposite effect. It would do great damage in the eyes of many Indonesian people to the relationship between our countries and it certainly won't help Schapelle Corby."

For anyone who doesn't know the background to all of this, Miss Corby claimed she had no knowledge of how the cannabis got into her bag but believes it was a plant while the luggage was in Australia out of sight. The fact she got 20 years has outraged the Australian public with websites springing up calling for a boycott of tourism to Indonesia.

Here is one such website:
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/corby
Russel Crowe has also joined the campaigne:
"Russell Crowe is stepping up his fight for an imprisoned Australian beautician who has spent the last six months in an Indonesian prison on drug smuggling charges after hearing that a man who could prove her innocence has been stabbed.
The Oscar winner appeared on Australian broadcaster John Laws' radio show, urging officials to step up their efforts to free Schapelle Corby.
Crowe said: "The photographs of Schappelle Corby broke my heart.
"I don't understand how we can, as a country, stand by and let a young lady rot away in a foreign prison. That is ridiculous.
"It is Indonesia, fine and dandy, but we need to find a rational platform to save this girl's life."
Corby was arrested and imprisoned last October when marijuana was found in her luggage during a trip to Bali, but the desperate beauty school student has maintained her innocence ever since.
Her plight suffered somewhat last week when another Aussie Indonesian inmate, who testified that a gang used Corby's luggage to stash the drugs, was stabbed in jail and put in solitary confinement for his protection."

davidmc

What has happened to my thread This thread is about how President Bush has emaciated our military & now they can't get anybody to sign up (as I did in my youth) Let's try to keep "on topic" no?

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

darkboong

There's a surreal opinion piece at Counterpunch on that very topic :
http://www.counterpunch.org/lind06012005.html

Carrera

Sorry, I seem to have opened up a sub-thread in a thread. I'll open up a distinct thread on the Corby case a little later

davidmc

It just seemed to be spinning off into an entirely different discussion. Do as you wish.

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )