Seattle high school seeks military recruiter ban

darkboong

Sometimes the truth hurts. Many Muslims, particularly those in the Middle East are innocent victims of predatory, greedy and corrupt westerners.



Indonesia is well known for it's zero tolerance approach to drug trafficking (when it suits them). If she knowingly broke the law, more fool her.



Why would the Indonesian government be grateful for us giving a home to people it wants dead ?



Well no, but it's still a prohibited substance. It has been getting more prohibited too, haven't you noticed the freeze on medicinal research that has suddenly happened globally ? For some reason the powers that be really don't want people to take cannabis in any way shape or form. I can;t see the sense in it from a medicinal point of view, especially in the light of the legal status of substances like Valium, Xanax, Alcohol, Nicotine and Opiates...



Criticising Western support for despotic regimes, ethnic cleansing and mass slaughter of civillians is a million miles away from Brainwashing.

coolworx

OK, but what do you call criticising Western REMOVAL of despotic regimes that have used ethnic cleansing and mass slaughter of civillians?

Were you in favor of Clintoon taking out Milosovik?

darkboong

No problem in principle, however in practice that isn't what the US is doing.

The US replaces despotic regimes with it's military machine.

There is little material difference in the nature of the violence inflicted by the US forces on the people of Iraq and Afghanistan. Thousands of innocent people are tortured and killed without so much as them even appearing on the lists of prisoners.



From http://www.counterpunch.org/sharon05282005.html

The main difference between the US and the regimes they replaced is the scale of the slaughter. The US regime is responsible for slaughtering civillians at five times the rate of Saddam in Iraq and what's more the living standards, health and safety of the citizens under their care has plummeted.

The problem as I see is that the US military machine is unaccountable to the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan. It is has persecuted, tortured and slayed innocent civillians with impunity on a grand scale. The people who perpetrated and colluded in those crimes have largely gone unpunished, the *very* few convictions that have been made have been extremely light. Even worse there is a culture of denial within the US mass-media and population at large that has been carefully engineered by the US administration. Whistleblowers are routinely demonized, denied and sidelined, reports are silenced, records are lost. There is little hope of accountability being brought to bear on the wrong-doers from the US side, so the plight of the folks under the American boot is unlikely to be addressed.



It wasn't just Clinton doing that, in fact he dug his heels in the face of European pressure to act quickly. As it turned out too little was done too late. Sadly I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that the folks in power cared enough to actually learn from that. Kosovo demonstrated that in spades. The Americans delivered an ultimatum to the Serbs : stand back and let the Albanians ethnically cleanse the place, if you don't we will attack you. The rest is history.

I really don't think the US gives a toss about the welfare of citizens in the countries it attacks and occupies. I *really* hoped that my cynicism about the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions was mistaken, but unfortunately it turns out to have been entirely justified.

Try and set aside your patriotism for a minute and take a good hard look at the independant reports coming out of those places and then reassess your call on the situation. I do have faith that there are a large number of brave and decent US citizens who are capable of taking this particular bull by the horns and bringing down an almighty shithammer on the war-criminals within their midst.

coolworx

Really? So all those blue fingers last January was just the Iraqi populace being brainwashed into electing a puppet gov't, eh?

Ya know, I'm not some jingoistic sheep-like creature that laps up FoxNews like manna from heaven, but I DO dispute this relentless anti-American, anti-Capitalist bunk to which the recent generations seem to have become addicted.

The US is no worse, and usually a HELLUVA lot better then the petty tyrants, and the socialist politicos that support them.
It is a tough, pragmatic world where "ideals" are usually just a luxury for us spoiled civilians.

davidmc

Agree w/ you here. Here's something I believe you & darkboong have not addressed. One or both of you claim that it is Democracy that our attackers despise. This may well be true but, have you two considered the unending juggernaut of American pop-culture that these societies, myself included, do not cater to. These product's include but are not limited to- trash movies, trash food, liberal lending (debt), trashy/street walker-like cultural icons such as young women pop singer's (mime's), decadent movies (there are hundred's), nutrition-less food stuff's=pepsi, mcdonalds, ect...This value-less tripe (pop-culture/profligate spending w/ nothing to show for it) originates from the west [mainly the U.S.] & infect's other country's youth. I, myself, can see why they have strong emotions about this. So, there is a little more than our "gov't model" that is at issue here.

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

coolworx

Ahh yes... the price of freedom is that even the pursuit of the prurient is left unfettered. But ya know, given the alternative [Big Brother keeping the ignoble at bay] I'll risk living with the hedonists over the puritans.

And besides... who is at fault here? The US for allowing "artists" like Spears and Eminem to produce their "masterpieces" without governmental oversight, or the world public that fawns over these talentless tabloiders?

darkboong

A government is not a government if it has no control over the major military forces within it's country. You should know that.



It's not bunk. The strongest military force in Iraq at the moment is not accountable to the elected government. That same military force incarcerates, maims, wounds and tortures citizens without any reliable record, or due process. That really does amount to a puppet government because it has absolutely zero control over it's own turf. If you don't like it tough shit, because that is the harsh reality of the situation.



There is little material difference between how Saddam has used Abu Ghraib and how the US has used it. The US forces have wiped out an entire city of 300,000 people to set an example (*and* they used chemical weapons), that really ain't much different from Saddam's old antics is it ? As I pointed out the US kill rate on the citizens of Iraq is five times higher than Saddam's last decade total and they have achieved that in the space just two years. To put it bluntly, when it comes to people getting killed and maimed, the US invasion has proven to be worse than Saddam.



It's nothing to do with "ideals", it's down to good old fashioned human decency.

darkboong

To be honest I think that is projection. Those folks have far more pressing problems like trying to stay alive from day to day.

davidmc

Believe me, I am all for freedom of expression. I'm a "card carrying member" of the ACLU for cryin' out loud . But, I'm a "westerner". Many people in that part of the world (eastern) do not want this tripe infecting their societies. It makes sense to me. The only American many of them have ever seen is Spears or P. Diddy. That doesn't make me proud Before any American sets foot in their country, they have already been inundated w/ this soul-crushing/draining, useless, American pop-culture.

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

davidmc

I gather from your previous postings that you are from europe (spelling "realize" w/ an "s") You may not be aware that the "buisiness of america is buisiness"-selling/buying goods[aforementioned] They go hand in hand. Therefore the torrent of this soul sucking merchandise/foodstuff's will "drown" any country we do buisiness with. Good bye "mom & pop" shops, hello walmart. It is not something to be summarily dismissed.

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

davidmc

Ah-ha You are a hedonist like me. Welcome to my thread brother

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

Carrera

The fact is, much of this situation makes me pretty angry. One of my principal gripes against Bush is he's been stupid enough to portray westerners as corrupt, greedy, immoral and stupid. But the truth is George Bush hardly reflects the everyday American and, as Limerickman pointed out before, many Americans are liberal, generous people who hold similar values to Europeans. Most Brits also have little in common with Blair.
But somehow, all westerners are being somehow cast as villains.
What I'm saying, though, is that here in the U.K. we spend billions on asylum cases, we give billions of pounds to Third World causes and Indonesia received huge amounts of cash relief and aid from Brits and Australians.
So, what happens? An Aussie girl gets caught with a bunch of dope (it's not clear it hadn't been a plant) and Indonesia plans to jail her for 20 years). This is a worse scenario that what a Bali bomber would get.
I've seen this situation over and over again, to be honest. I had friends who've been thrown into jail overseas and beaten up for visa infringements and there are cases where the Embassies refuse to get involved. Yet, when the citizens of these same countries come to the U.K., they discover a land of compensation claims and milk and honey.
What annoys me specifically about all of that is the bias and inequality. That is, you or I travel to, say, Indonesia and face 20 years in jail if we take a step out of place. Someone comes over here and maybe mugs a passer-by and then gets some kind of compensation claim when a cop makes an arrest.
I think there has been so much propaganda that people now genuinely believe that if you assert your own right to be treated fairly abroad as newcomers are treated over here, this is racist. I don't accept this view. There is a belief that Arab countries bear no responsibility for some of the mess that exists in their countries and that it is all the fault of the west. These countries, though, should take a good hard look at their human rights record and accept the fact that putting someone in jail for 20 years over a harmless stack of cannabis is crazy. Likewise flogging people over a stack of alcohol is equally as mad.
I really think the Australian PM should have gotten tough diplomatically with Indonesia and the government over there should be tactfully reminded of the billions of dollars of aid they got from people just like the Australian girl they jailed for 20 years.

darkboong

The problem with this is that it is *our* productivity that enables pricks like Bush and Blair to destroy the lives of folks in those far away places and we even get to vote them in so they represent our wishes... That's what those folks see, psychopaths endorsed and actively supported by the voters.



A friend of a friend flew to the US to do some work on a film. She was taken into custody on arrival in the US, invasively searched, manacled without food or water for 24 hours and then deported from the US. No charges, no explanation, no charges. She is a British National of Pakistani descent. The authorities appeared to have a problem with her being of Asian appearance and Muslim faith.

It cuts both ways unfortunately, we really don't have any right to complain when we our democractically elected government is complicit in that kind of discrimination. After all our democratically elected government represents our wishes, right ? (Sarcasm btw) :P



I don't accept that view and it is certainly not one that I have seen promoted or people suffering for. However the ultimate point is : You are in someone else's country, you don't have the same rights as the citizens, whatever they may or may not be.



The West has actively installed and supported ruthless regimes as a matter of course in that region. The Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Mubarak, Israel in Lebanon and Palestine, the Hashemites etc etc etc. The people of those countries have rarely had a choice in how their country is run, and the folks who make the rules and have the power to change things are unlikely to voluntarily surrender their position of wealth and power.



I repeat : It is up to you to respect the laws of the country you are visiting. *IF* that woman was conciously breaking the law, that's her look-out. If she was framed or scape-goated then there is an injustice and it should be sorted out. The case of the Bulgarian nurses in Libya is a rather depressing example of that in action.



The Austrailian PM appears to be thoroughly in the pocket of multi-nationals, and you wouldn't want to disturb business would you ? ...

davidmc

Danziger is one of the best satirist's

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__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )