pealling push up push down

n crowley

Yes that's it, now all that remains is to do this with just one signal from the brain to the muscles that will make max pedal power available from 11 to 5 o'c, which will mean you can use this same power generating technique at all times regardless of cadence. It also means power can only be applied in the same direction at all times and that may be a bit difficult for you.

Mansmind

You're right, when you suggest that the linear direction of force is the same through 180 degrees of pedal rotation. Although I understand that the pedals WILL move with force applied all in one direction, I also know that at some point(s) through that 180 degrees, you're either effectively trying to stretch, or compress the cranks themselves. Although that's unavoidable to some extent, any force directed in this fashion (compressing/stretching) would be lost.

Makes more sense to me to at least try to apply that same force tangentially to the circle dictated by the pedals/cranks. While you could never model a true circular motion with your legs and apply substantial power at the same time, you can slightly change the direction of force applied through the stroke and at least utilize some of that potentially "lost" power.

The ideal would be force applied at 90 degrees to the crank arm at any point during the stroke, but that's not realistic through 180 degrees of movement.

Brizza

Because Crowley tried to use the study to show you can't use the upstroke to produce power which is not what the study shows. The study shows that elite riders push down more and that's no suprise but it doesn't show that you can't train your upstroke without losing down stroke power.

For the purposes Crowley wanted we needed two groups who had trained for upstroke and downstroke seated pedaling (particularly on long hills). But to analyse riders who are biased towards downstroke work and to average their results so even if there was a number of riders producing large amounts of upstroke power we can't see it, doesn't add substance to our discussion.

Crowley. Now that your rider has max power on his downstroke, why can't he work on his upstroke for additional force (I'm not suggesting even pedaling)?

VeloFlash

One of the problems in developing upstroke power is the power cost for an inefficient benefit.

A track kilo coach informed me there was a study done (AIS?) where it showed that the backstroke power was only 10% of the downstroke power but required 100% input from the rider's energy systems.

The upstroke is only used in the first few pedal strikes (2-3) from a standing start then all power is on the front stroke.

If you were able to apply backstroke force at 120+ rpm then you would go anaerobic earlier. And that ain't pleasant!

__________________
VF

"Remember, even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat"

Brizza

And you will see throughout this thread I have been suggesting that a toe down downstroke focus is better for track riders.

There are different styles of pedaling for different conditions (sprinting, long and short hills, tailwinds, headwinds, surges and time trialing). It's not like one style fits all.

n crowley

That max power is not on the same downstroke all other riders use, it's applied in a line that's parallel to the arm pulling line, so as to be able to make maximum use of arm resistance when seated and that's where I do the pulling.
The rising leg is doing more beneficial work than attempting to generate force by pulling up, as it is being drawn back to about 10 o'c, it is totally unweighted as it creates a special spring loaded effect that enables it to start applying max power to the pedal at 11 o'c.

Brizza

So while it could create force you think you can create more on the down by resting on the up? (now I can see why you think riders would fail to use pressure on both the up and down strokes)

Considering you're using different muscles, why not train your legs to do both?

n crowley

No, unweighting or clearance is sufficient, anything extra would upset the timing of the linear pedalling style. Tests that have been done on serious pulling up found that the more you pulled up, the more you rocked from side to side on the saddle.

Brizza

But you agree we don't need a smooth action.

Sounds to me like you're making excuses for being unable to pull up with form, but your line of debate has been all over the place

n crowley

Yes that statement I made is correct and is in agreement with what I am always stating. None of my max power application is in a vertical or direct downward direction, it's always in a line that's parallel to the arm resistance line which is approx. at a 45 degree angle to the ground.

I have never claimed you don't need a smooth pedalling action, linear pedalling is the smoothest and most powerful of all TT pedalling techniques.


For sprinting or sudden acceleration stomping or mashing is best and that is the opposite to smooth pedalling but I am only concerned with TT riding.

Brizza

Are you saying that you angle your foot?

Can you expand on

n crowley

The direction that the sole of shoe is pointing is the direction in which the power is being directed at the pedal axle (11-6 o'c), it can vary depending on your position on saddle (forward or back) but it is normally in a toes down direction. That explains Anquetils toes down style, he used the identical technique and this pedalling action can be seen on his video.

Mansmind

I still have the same thoughts/question. Assuming you apply force in a completely linear fashion between those two points (11-6), don't you think a lot of that force is wasted as it is not perpendicular to the path of the crank?

n crowley

That is something the scientists can research when eventually they get round to acquiring this technique but I don't believe there is any waste of power. Mentally power is applied in a line drawn from 11 to 5 o'c, the rotating pedal and crank extend and convert this line into a semicircle. The main power is coming from the hip and it is steered in such a way using thigh, knee, calf and ankle that you can get almost maximum chaindrive power to the crank in all of its positions from 11 to 5. The upper body arm power also
plays an important part when maximum TT power is required. With this technique you are using muscles in a way normal riders never use them.
Don't forget, this technique can also do what medical researchers have failed to do, eliminate the root cause of all cycling related lower back pain and this it does by completley removing the lower back from the pedalling action and leaving it in a relaxed state even when turning the highest gears.