Today's Forum Topics
Set as homepage
|
View
New Forum Topics Today's Forum Topics Set as homepage |
 |
|
|||||||
Welcome to CyclingForums.com You are currently viewing our website as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions. You will have to register before you can post to this thread. By joining our free online community you will have access to post new topics, communicate privately with other cyclingforums.com members (PM), respond to polls, upload photos and access other special features like product reviews and classifieds. |
 |
|
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
24-05.-2005, 06:03 AM
|
#76 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: dublin ireland
Posts: 383
|
Re: pealling push up push down
Quote:
Why argue about pedalling styles, there is a time and place for all of them, circular for muscle relaxation when riding in the bunch, mashing for sudden acceleration or sprinting and the mysterious linear style for time trial or any solo riding where constant maximum power is needed. That article above on seated/standing comparison confirms a lot of what I have been trying to get across such as there is little to be gained from pulling up with the legs. It also states that the most effective seated pedalling technique is the one that could get nearest to reproducing the standing technique. This is actually the objective in linear pedalling and that is why the arms (pull/push) plays such an important role. While the author guessed correctly, he underestimated all the advantages associated with such a style especially the complete elimination of the lower back from the pedalling action and this is due to, as he describes it, the use of bi-articular muscles when transferring power from arms to pedals, and the important role of the hips in contributing to the pedalling resistance. The total elimination of the dead spot area is just another important advantage of linear pedalling (or the out of the saddle technique reproduced in a seated position). |
|
|
|
|
24-05.-2005, 06:35 AM
|
#77 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 334
|
Re: pealling push up push down
Quote:
Can you be a little more specific perhaps differentiating sprinters and hill climbers? What works best for you will depend on your body composition amongst other things so I suggest riders try different techniques and decide for themselves what their legs consider the best pedaling technique in terms of pushes and pulls. Crowley. Yes it does leave a dead spot but their are no major muscles that produce lots of power in those spots. We can train to produce power from them but we won't see the results we can get from the vertical sections of the stroke. Working on either the up or down will make you a stronger rider and while getting power out of those dead sections does help getting more power out of the up or down is more important. |
|
|
|
|
|
24-05.-2005, 07:39 AM
|
#78 |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: dublin ireland
Posts: 383
|
Re: pealling push up push down
[QUOTE=Brizza]
Crowley. Yes it does leave a dead spot but their are no major muscles that produce lots of power in those spots. We can train to produce power from them but we won't see the results we can get from the vertical sections of the stroke. I have already stated many times that the dead spot area can be replaced with maximum pedal power. Just keep on pulling up, I give up. |
|
|
|
|
24-05.-2005, 07:40 AM
|
#79 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 8
|
Re: pealling push up push down
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
24-05.-2005, 08:14 AM
|
#80 |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PHX, AZ
Posts: 93
|
Re: pealling push up push down
I know it's a sample size of 1 and the pull up camp won't be swayed but I ran test today in any event anyway. Anyone with a power meter can do the same and I would love to see what their results are. Anyway this is what I did.
30 second power launches with the emphasis on pushing stomping on the pedals and other with making sure I pulled up also. As noted in some posts, some people pull up so hard that the rear wheel would come off the ground. Now the only time I could ge that to happen is if I used very high gears. The net result was that I couldn't generate enough downward force to push the pedal down more rapidly than the leg was lifting. the net result was some additional force being exerted in those cases by the pulling leg and some rear wheel hop. However, in not one instance did one of the pulling launches generate as high a peak power, as high an average power, nor as high a terminal velocity at the end of 30 seconds. I di 4 launches each way and the averages for each were as follows For the stomping launches Peak Power 991 Avg Power 785 Terminal Velocity 35.5 mph Max Cadence 144 For the pulling launches In the same gear ( 2 ) Peak Power 901 Avg Power 750 Terminal Velocity 29.0 mph Max Cadence 140 For the pulling launches with rear wheel hop (2) Peak Power 855 Avg Power 690 Terminal Velocity 23.5 Max Cadence 133 I think the lower numbers on the rear wheel hop have to do with the fact that too much energy/time is lost trying to push too big a gear. And this negatively effect the rate of acceleration and it can never be made up. Also the numbers on the wheel hop might be off a little due to the use of a PowerTap Pro. The wheel spin whil in the air might have contributed to a lower power number. However even in that case the terminal velocity numbers do support a lower power number. |
|
|
|
|
24-05.-2005, 11:19 PM
|
#81 |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Jyvaskyla, Finland
Posts: 665
|
Re: pealling push up push down
Jerryz wrote:
For the stomping launches Peak Power 991 Avg Power 785 Terminal Velocity 35.5 mph Max Cadence 144 For the pulling launches In the same gear ( 2 ) Peak Power 901 Avg Power 750 Terminal Velocity 29.0 mph Max Cadence 140 For the pulling launches with rear wheel hop (2) Peak Power 855 Avg Power 690 Terminal Velocity 23.5 Max Cadence 133 Screwy results. You sure you did the 2nd and 3rd for the same amount of time? Looks like you just didn't accelerate for the same length of time. For a terminal velocity of 23.5 mph, I can't see you needing more than 275 w, 690 should get you way higher than that. Had a headwind? I barely need to pedal to get to 23.5 mph in 30 seconds... I'm one of those that gets a huge boost from pulling up, both top end and launch, but I like really high gears at top end (sprinting). Yesterday I climbed a short 10% gradient at 43 km/hr (88 kg rider+bike) for about 8 seconds sustained. I entered the hill at 42 km/hr. I'm estimating about 1300 w power output, my cadence was no more then 80 rpm (I think I was in a 53x14 or something like that) and I stood up at the end to hold power. This is less power than I could put out by going up to 120 rpm but I get zip from going higher than that. About rear wheel hop, I tend to lift the front wheel sometimes, but I think it's just a balance thing. Have lifted the back wheel too. -Bikeguy |
|
|
|
|
30-05.-2005, 05:24 PM
|
#82 |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Wichita Falls, TX
Posts: 13
|
Re: pealling push up push down
ok, so I've spent the last little bit reading thru all this and I have a question/comment. Isn't the end result, or shouldn't it be atleast, to keep the same power output all the way thru the pedal stroke? That would be done using both legs and if it takes one "lifting", "pulling-up", and/or "un-weighting" to maintain the same output then so be it. I mean this is a simple law of physics to me.....once an object is in motion it is easier to keep it in motion than it is to stop it, slow it down, or drop the ouput and then start it or get it to the same speed/ouput again. Shouldn't we be looking at the "object" as yourself and the bike rather than which foot you are using? If it takes you pulling up to maintain lets say 350 watts of output then so be it but the purpose is to maintain the same output throughout the pedaling cycle....right? Seems logical to me that this would be the most efficient way to keep the bike in motion and at the same speed. So perhaps I don't see what the debate is about other than what is the best way to accomplish this outcome.....and if that is the case then the answer to me would be simply, whichever works for you.
As for the upstroke "creating" any power output.....well.....doesn't "un-weighting" the leg on the upstroke let your other leg "create" more power? Or atleast transfer it to the wheel rather than using it to pick-up the weight of the leg that is on the upstroke?  Maybe I'm looking at it all wrong but it seems simple to me.....maybe I'm only looking at it from a physics stand-point.....but I ride enough and read enough to know what everyone is talking about in the previous posts so I don't think that is the case. Maybe my definition of a "smooth pedal stroke" is warped in that I think that the idea is to maintain the same output and should be about consistency....rather than what part of the stroke you are using to create the power at any given instance. If you were to look at a graph of your power output over a long period of time then you would want to see it increase until you reached "cruising speed" (for lack of a better term) and then see it flat-line to the end......keep in mind I'm just talking about most efficient and not sprint finishes and blah blah blah. Isn't the "best" also the most efficient in the case of cycling? Couldn't you change the "style" of pedaling in regard the each situation and still end up with the same result.....being that you maintain the same output thru the stroke? |
|
|
|
|
30-05.-2005, 08:55 PM
|
#83 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: dublin ireland
Posts: 383
|
Re: pealling push up push down
Quote:
If we refer to smooth pedalling as applying continuous equal chaindrive power to the chainwheel, it makes it easier to understand. For time trials this has to be maximum power. You are forgetting about that area between 11 and 1 o'c, pulling up/unweighting and maximum vertical pressure will not apply any power in that area and as for " scraping the mud" etc., that can be more of a hindrance than a help. Being able to apply maximum power in the dead spot area is what makes a TT winner and as for the "hour record attempt", it can add an extra 5mins.+ of pedalling time to that 60 mins. normal riders are restricted to. According to Cycling Weekly mag. , scientists have been searching for the perfect pedal stroke since the pedal was first invented, their problem is, they don't know what they are looking for or where to start. |
|
|
|
|
|
30-05.-2005, 09:21 PM
|
#84 |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: east coast australia
Posts: 1,309
|
Re: pealling push up push down
There is evidence to suggest that concentrating on pulling up can have a negative effect on overall power output.
The more you ride, the more smoothly you pedal. In suggesting you should try to pedal smoothly I am not suggesting that your power output will be the same through 360 degrees. It is possible, but not without applying less power with the downstroke and therefore losing overall power. In general road riding the best riders pedal smoothly. If stomping worked you would see the pros doing it. Stomp if you want to, but unless you are on a steep hills or in a sprint, you will be left behind.  |
|
|
|
|
30-05.-2005, 10:58 PM
|
#85 | ||||
|
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 575
|
Re: pealling push up push down
Quote:
Why would you say that? The goal is to have maximum power at the back wheel by whatever method gets you there. Quote:
The point you are missing is that your muscles aren't symmetrical around your leg. Your body simply is not capable of producing the forces required for max power in any other axis other than "down". How many squats could you do with no additional weight? Probably several hundred in a row without difficulty. Now, if you were hanging from your ankles, how many times could you lift yourself up? Once? Twice? Quote:
Where do you think the power to lift your dead leg comes from? All of the energy to perform the work has to come from your body - think about it. How much oxygen are you robbing from the working leg to lift the dead leg? Quote:
You are definitely not looking at it from a physics stand point. |
||||
|
|
|
|
30-05.-2005, 11:00 PM
|
#86 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: nr. Milton Keynes, UK
Posts: 216
|
Re: pealling push up push down
Quote:
This is completely contrary to existing evidence. There is no established connection between 'smoothness' and performance. In the only existing (and highly credible) study into the pedalling mechanics of elite-level cyclists they tended to display a *less* 'smooth' pedal stroke than inferior riders, although this is probably only due to the fact that they apply so much more torque on the downstroke. L.
__________________
MSc (Applied Sport and Exercise Science) RST Associate Coach ABCC Level 3 Coach Doctoral Student (Physiology), University of Oxford, UK. www.cyclecoach.com www.science4sport.com |
|
|
|
|
|
30-05.-2005, 11:12 PM
|
#87 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 575
|
Re: pealling push up push down
Quote:
The pros and good riders stomp....trust me. There's a local race I often race in where everyone from the former pros to the strong cat 4s show up to race. When you're next to Frankie Andreu and hear the wzhhh wzhhh wzhhh with every down stroke, you know who's stomping and who's spinning. The stronger the rider, the more obvious the sound of their stomping is. |
|
|
|
|
|
30-05.-2005, 11:49 PM
|
#88 |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Jyvaskyla, Finland
Posts: 665
|
Re: pealling push up push down
Smoothly to me doesn't mean equal power output through the cycle, as has been demonstrated the best way to pedal (for endurance events) is to apply max power at 3 o'clock (meaning the forward foot when the crank is parallel to the ground) with almost no activity through the dead zones and only enough pulling up to get the leg out of the way on the upstroke. I see pedaling smoothly as pedaling like a metronome, minimum acceleration/deceleration (as bike speed) and matching the peak output to exactly 3 o'clock.
It should be noted some elite cyclists have been shown to pull up slightly during the upstroke, so ymmv. -Bikeguy |
|
|
|
|
30-05.-2005, 11:59 PM
|
#89 | ||
|
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 575
|
Re: pealling push up push down
Quote:
I guess we have different ideas of what "smooth" means then. It's certainly not the adjective I'd use to describe that method of pedaling. Quote:
Where has this been shown? |
||
|
|
|
|
31-05.-2005, 04:39 AM
|
#90 | ||||
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Wichita Falls, TX
Posts: 13
|
Re: pealling push up push down
Quote:
I was thinking of a long ride, like I stated, and not a sprint. You can't maintain your max power all the time....you have to pace yourself...regardless I'm not arguing what the goal is and I think perhaps is just a matter of wording between us and our view. Quote:
I'm not missing this point, perhaps I didn't say it but it should be obvious to anyone that certain muscles are stronger than others. I understand that down produces the most.....but standing produces more than sitting so why don't we just save the weight and take off the seat, stand for 100 miles and see how it goes. Maybe I missed the purpose of this thread in that I thought we were discussing the most efficient pedaling action and not what part of the pedal stroke produces the most power. Atleast that's what the topic seemed to turn into from what I was reading. Again you can't stay maxed out all the time..... Quote:
My thought was that both legs working together and splitting the work over the different muscle groups, even if it is 95% your down stroke and 5%, your upstroke (or whatever, I'm not saying that's accurate by any means), I mean even if you are only using the upstroke to lift the weight of the leg then it is still allowing the down stroke to produce more power to the wheel. Although you bring up a very good point that I had not considered in that you only have so much energy and oxygen and which muscle group uses that energy most efficiently and creates the most power with the same amount of energy and oxygen is the one to use.......hmmm.....interesting.....hadn't thought of that variable.....this is why it's nice to have debates, the different views definitely bring up things you may not have considered before.....and you have to throw in that maybe you can only concentrate on one of the actions as a time and thus you a losing power when you are off thinking about that upstroke rather than focusing on your downstroke......ahhh the list of variables goes on. Quote:
actually I still believe I am....although it is not worth arguing about, my opinion of where my view comes from is not important This type of thread is awesome to me.......this is what makes us all better and brings about new technologies and theories. It makes you think about things you never considered before.....although unless someone is ready to bring us all into a lab and spend a few months going through all these things and testing each I doubt this will ever end. I didn't know what the debate was about before but I definitely see it now..... |
||||
|
|
|
Linear Mode
