pealling push up push down

n crowley

It is this advice and the gearing restriction of young riders that prevents them from searching for their own best way to power the pedals and kept the mysterious powerful pedalling of Anquetil in time trials a secret for so long. Even when Anquetil was invincible in time trials, his coach tried to force him to change his technique to the circular style. There are three basic styles with a suitable time and place for all three and I believe you could be a far better cyclist when you succeed in perfecting all three. But because of the brainwashing of all young riders, even today's top researchers are only aware of two and because of this have put the wrong interpretation on the results of their research.

edd

I'm no expert so you are not going to get an argument from me. It's just when I was a less trained cyclist my legs would fatigue on a hill and I'd sit in the saddle and focus on lifting my pedals to attempted to stop from falling completely off the back of the pack. These days my legs are up to the task, my focus is on when and where to expend or conserve my energies as I seem to completely fatigue as opposed to just not having no legs. I'm completely oblivious to my pedaling action, focus is on effort and cadence and the other riders.

michieK

Try to keep your heals pointed down while you pedal to avoid the ballet pointy toe. This technique is especially useful on climbs; I concentrate on keeping my heels down and that helps me pull up. Courtesy of Coach Aldo at the Alabama cycling camp.

edd

There is a point there … "that is if you a good a one thing why do another thing that you are less good at"

The whole pedaling in circles debate is a bit of nonsense really. Everybody who rides a bike for any length of time in cleated pedals will do more then just stomp down. The idea of training more of the smaller muscle to contribute to the pedaling action is not without merit. I read somewhere that about 40% of leg muscle mass is recruited in cycling while 70% is recruited in running. I don't know where these stats come from and not sure that it is true, it must vary from one bloke to the next. However reason dictates that more contributing muscles = more power. Otherwise why have clip in pedals, which I've been told will allow one to produce as much as 30% more power.

edd

In simple terms:
top of the stroke = kick foward, the forward leg
middle of the up/down stroke = lift with the rearward knee
bottom of the stroke = scrape backwards the mud of the forward shoe

However this is a training thing, sometimes when I want some real power I point my toe and stomp down !

n crowley

What effect does cadence increase have on the start of a stomper's effective pedal stroke ?

edd

Not quite sure I understand the question, I can only speak for myself on this, need to accelerate to pass, stomp, cadence increases, (90/100 to 105/115) done as opposed to getting out of the saddle however I don't / can't sustain this, max 3 min effort I reckon then back to a smoother pedal stroke.

n crowley

Unlike the circular style where attempted continuous 360 degree power appliction is used, with the stomping style power application is made by sharp injections of power to a fast moving crank. This power application begins to take effect somewhere between 12 and 3 o'c, what I am asking is, does increasing cadence move the start of power application closer to 12 or 3 o'c.

edd

Without putting too fine a point on this … if i get out of the saddle the power application I think is more to the 3 o'c, if I just stomp in the saddle it is more midway between 12 and 3 o'c. Not really my focus when I'm doing this. Power and cadence increase is a combined lift in performance for a bust of acceleration.



I don't know ?

swampy1970

I've been using Powercranks for a mere two months and despite this short period, I've noticed a few bizzare things, some expected, some not:

- My cadence has been shot to hell... 80rpm in any gear is hell on wheels. Someday I'll get back to around 90rpm for hours on end.... someday.

- I've got past the having to think about pulling up. Pulling up and pushing across the top is now natural which leaves me more time to concentrate on pushing down harder. I don't think about "pedaling in circles" as it just happens, it HAS to happen with these things and with that distraction out of the way it's easier to concentrate on pushing down and form.

- Despite only being able to ride for 2 hours and having limited exposure to these cranks, my hill climbing has improved significantly. During the past 2 years I've been climbing up the local mountain, 5 miles average 9% at around 7 mph (there are places where the grade gets to around 25%) using plots from the training sessions logged with my Polar CS600 I can see that even on my heavier steel bike (23lb with Adjustable Powercrank Vs 17.5lb for my carbon/ali bike) I'm faster. I'm also 10lbs heavier than I was back in July too. Given the extra combined 16lb in weight and not being able to do the 5 to 6 hour training sessions on the mountain I'm a happy camper with the extra 1mph. I'm slowly losing the weight and can't wait until I lose that 16lbs.

- Oddly, heart rate for a given speed below threshold is lower now with the Powercranks than it was just two months ago. I would have expected at this early stage that it would be the other way around.

- I'm developing muscles I never had when I was racing years ago, most notiably in the front/inner thigh area. "Her indoors" approves

These are just my observations. I really wish I had these years ago when I was a mere 140lbs but could do a 56 on the local 25mile tt. Now, less fit and 183lb these things have been more of a jump start back to fitness than anything in the past 2 years and believe me I haven't been slacking.

n crowley

You say you did a 56 for a 25 m tt, if you had POWERCRANKS at that time, where or how could they have improved that TT time.

swampy1970

I only have two months on these cranks, so apart from the data that I have to reference from last summer against current rides there's not really much I can add of "actual data."

I'm heavier now than I was back in the middle of last year yet faster uphill despite doing pretty much the same training this past few weeks as I had done this time last year.

(It's a given that the first couple of weeks on Powercranks if you're using them exclusively is just short and painful intervals at slow speed).

All I can say is that I don't think about what happens between 6 o'clock and 11 o'clock and I just think about pushing harder. It gives you less to think about as you know that if you don't unweight the leg you don't get to pedal again. It's actually quite a liberating feeling, not in a mystical Zen-like way but "nice" none-the-less.

As I don't have a means of measuring instantaneous torque I'd hazzard a guess that my extra speed comes from concentrating on pushing harder, sooner, as I can't imagine "being stronger" this soon into using them. Pedaling does feel consistently smoother than before, but when I get into "the zone" I know I've been there before on rare occaisions on standard cranks. There's been a few times on the turbo (trainer) where I've pushed a little too soon and ended up getting some air time off the saddle...

Of course I say that "I don't think about what happens between 6 o'clock and 11 o'clock" but after two hours I still don't think - I just can't pedal. LOL

What I haven't had time to look at (or even if its possible to get the raw data from the CS600 output - I haven't played with the Polar Protrainer software or whatever it's called) is where I gained the time on the hill, the steep bits or the flatter parts.

Do they work? I'm liking the results so far and I'm not going to be returning them for the money back guarentee... plus I got the adjustable ones, so when I loose the midsection "tub o'lard" I'll be checking out different crank lengths too. Now I already know from past testing (a decade or so ago) I'm faster on longer cranks but the gut gets compressed twice per pedal rev if I use the 185mm TA Alize cranks and it certainly isn't possible to use the Powercranks at that length due to gut squish.

... and I know I did a good number of 56's back in merry old England during the mid 90's. The only time I got a fast course (on "the Boro" on the A1, Yorkshire) on a "good" day I punctured at the far turn. Did a couple of 21 minute 10's and a couple of 1-55's for 50miles too. Ah, wonderful days of getting up at 4am to go time trialing on the trusty 531 frame in a skinsuit through the 6am morning fog. Brrrrrrr.

n crowley

Now that this study has been completed and found Powercranks did not improve power output, are you embarrassed by your claims of 40%. Rotorcranks, Powercranks and circular pedalling are all affected by the same problem which removes any expected advantages; fast moving leg muscles of higher cadences can behave or react differently to slow moving muscles, the rate at which visualization of new ideas and their possible advantages is usually done. But while these fast moving muscles can erase the expected advantages of an inventor's new idea, they can also make possible that which at slow motion visualization speed or static crank position appears to be impossible, (e.g.) with the knowhow and normal equipment you can begin your power stroke with (full 90 deg.) tangential maximum power to the crank before 12 o'c. If PC's enabled a rider to do that, what would they be worth ?

Fday

Huh? To which study are you referring?