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04-11.-2006, 09:43 AM
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#361 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 308
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Re: pedaling push up push down
Ok, I'm sorry, but I have to say this. I watched the video clips on the Power Cranks web site, and those are just a joke. Showing what sorts of "tricks" the PC's can do while on a 20-second climb is just silly...I don't care if that guy riding in the video can average 500, 600, or 850 watts during each of the "tricks," until I see him putting out more power at threshold, everything that's on the PC web site holds no water. It's seriously NOT convincing to hear an owner of a gym talk about how a spin bike would never be brought in the gym and how PC's are just the best thing since sliced bread. C'mon guys...a new abstract, ONE research article, and an array of customer comments...it's just not gonna do it for me. I think we need more than this to buy into PC's.
Also, all this talk about training the hamstrings in the videos got me thinking....how do PC's effectively train the hamstrings better than conventional cranks?  |
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04-11.-2006, 11:19 AM
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#362 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 77
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Re: pedaling push up push down
Quote:
if you've obviously never used them how do you expect to get answers?
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shameless POWERCRANK plug Don't run red lights, wear a helmet, use hand signals, get some cycle lights(front and rear) and, FFS, don't run red lights! |
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04-11.-2006, 12:11 PM
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#363 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 308
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Re: pedaling push up push down
Quote:
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04-11.-2006, 12:33 PM
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#364 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 77
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Re: pedaling push up push down
Quote:
http://www.cyclingforums.com/member.php?userid=102804 You wouldn't buy a bike without test riding it so...ummmm...............why would you not try before you buy? I did and most other people do - makes sense, especially for something like powercranks. Very few people just stump up cash without trying first - and those that don't try well.... PM Frank Day and find out if there's anyone near you or if there's a triathlon/trade show/demo near you and try them for free.
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shameless POWERCRANK plug Don't run red lights, wear a helmet, use hand signals, get some cycle lights(front and rear) and, FFS, don't run red lights! Last edited by markhr : 04-11.-2006 at 12:55 PM. Reason: better example |
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04-11.-2006, 05:35 PM
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#365 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales
Posts: 3,830
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Re: pedaling push up push down
Quote:
i've never used cigarettes, heroin, and various other things. I still know they're bad for me. why? because of research. As OF states, without no control group and other good research this is nothing. i'd be interested in seeing more than just an abstract. For e.g., the complete methodology, and results. When you add in Day's incredulous, and frankly daft claims (e.g., people can gain 35% in power or whatever daft figure it was) and because there has been no *significant* shift in the way people win bike races, it all seems lack a pack of lies (the 35% increase). A 35% increase that Day claimed (or still claims) would take me from a 2nd/3rd cat cyclist to top 10 or so in the TdF. Presuming that Day has sold these cranks to average 2nd/3rd cats, you'd have expected a few of them to break through to the very highest echelons of cycle sport. They haven't. Ric
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http://www.cyclecoach.com |
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05-11.-2006, 04:30 AM
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#366 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 679
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Re: pedaling push up push down
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Thanks for the vote of support. However, whatever claims I make for the product regarding what our AVERAGE new user can expect to see in power increases, using them will not take you or anyone else from middle of the pack to winner of the TDF or any other major race, primarily because each of the winners of all three grand tours have trained at least some on PC's, as has the current World and Olympic champion. Using them can only give you the same training edge as these champions but it cannot vault you past them. Cheers, Frank |
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05-11.-2006, 04:50 AM
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#367 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales
Posts: 3,830
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Re: pedaling push up push down
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It was you who suggested that an average user was a 2nd or 3rd cat in our previous discussion. I haven't suggested i'd vault past them i specifically stated top 10. So, have you now changed your 40% claim to the average user, who starts from an untrained or low level? Strange, i've never seen a photo of the GT winners training on your cranks (and they've never reported using them in training as far as i'm aware). Maybe "some" means they tried them once or twice or at an Expo? Still, there's others who you say train using your cranks, who i see training, and i've never seen them with your cranks. ric
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http://www.cyclecoach.com |
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05-11.-2006, 05:21 AM
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#368 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,019
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Re: pedaling push up push down
Quote:
Frank-my threshold (60 minute max power) is 300 watts. A 35% improvement would take me to 395 watts. At my weight of 63 kilograms, that would bring me to 6.43 w/kg. Are you really claiming this is even remotely possible? |
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05-11.-2006, 05:24 AM
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#369 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 679
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Re: pedaling push up push down
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Most of our customers are pretty serious cyclists or triathletes looking to get better. Reported speed improvements range from less than one mph to over 5 mph with the vast majority seeing 2-3 mph in 6 months. Few of these riders have power meters but 2-3 mph speed improvement calculates to an approximate 40% power increase for most of these people. People who actually have power data are usually reporting somewhere between 20 to 60% power increases in 6 months. I find it interesting that the fact that you haven't seen any of these top riders using them as evidence they do not. A couple of months ago we get a call from a pro who wants to get on them bcause his training partner is using them. We asked who his training partner was and he says Vinokurov! Of course, neither you or I have actually seen him on them (and he didn't get them from us as a sponsored athlete) so, of course, it is irrational to think someone of this ability would actually think my product worthwhile when someone of your emminence thinks it (an me) crazy. Then, a couple of months ago Tom Steels calls and orders 3 pair for teammates. Latest call we got (last week) from someone wanting to get on them is Baden Cooke. But, what does that mean? Nothing, apparently, to someone like you. Cheers. Frank |
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05-11.-2006, 05:27 AM
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#370 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 679
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Re: pedaling push up push down
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At that level I would guess 20% would be more likely in 6-9 months but you won't know until you try. We offer a 90 day moneyback guarantee. If it is a bunch of hooey send them back. We get about 2 in 1000 back under this guarantee. |
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05-11.-2006, 06:36 AM
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#371 | ||
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Community Team
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales
Posts: 3,830
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Re: pedaling push up push down
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i love it. You really are nuts. 60% my arse (unless they were completely untrained to start with). have you been smoking crack? Quote:
i've seen people who you suggest ride your cranks. i've never seen them with your cranks. ric
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http://www.cyclecoach.com |
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05-11.-2006, 06:39 AM
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#372 | |
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Community Team
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newport, South Wales
Posts: 3,830
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Re: pedaling push up push down
Quote:
wow! on page 20, you were saying people at that level were getting on average 40%. by page 30, it'll be down to 10%. Even at 20% the "average" user would be making such gains that it would affect bike racing significantly (assuming a few people have purchased these cranks). ric
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http://www.cyclecoach.com |
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05-11.-2006, 06:38 PM
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#373 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: WA, in Australia
Posts: 1,349
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Re: pealling push up push down
I am not a sports scientist, or a physiotherapist. I can see, however, some logic in the principle behind power cranks. I also see that it will bring minimal performance benefits. The quadriceps have the vast majority of the strength in your legs, they also pedal through the section of pedal stroke where the lever angle of your leg is at its most effective, eg between 2 and 3 oclock. I can see the value in training hamstrings, but they generate not nearly as much as your quadriceps and don't produce too much power on the 'up' stroke. PCs don't train your quadriceps any more than normal cranks, in theory they would train them less (not working against the dead weight of your leg, assuming you forget to relieve the weight during you pedal stroke at some point during a ride).
The claims by PC are a bit outrageous. I think proer periodisation and training plans would be of much greater benefits. The only reason I can see to use PC is to eliminate the minor deadspot at 6 and 12 o clock, which makes up about 20 degrees of your pedalstroke. Quads will always be a better place to train.
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BMC SL01 SRAM Force thank you crank n' cycles...If you are ever in SW WA, take a trip to Crank N' Cycles. |
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05-11.-2006, 09:59 PM
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#374 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: dublin ireland
Posts: 421
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Re: pedaling push up push down
Quote:
Frank, your problem is you are attributing the 2 or 3 mph increase to improved muscle power output. The 2 or 3 mph increase may be genuine but it is due to the clever use of gravity for increased positive crank torque and elimination of all negative torque at little extra cost to the bodies required power output. This improvement might be even better if the users of PC's knew what their objectives were from the day they began using them. |
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06-11.-2006, 03:09 AM
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#375 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 679
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Re: pedaling push up push down
Quote:
Actually, I don't "attribute" the improvement most see to any specific mechanism as I don't know the relative weaknesses of each rider that PC's might address so it is not possible to know the specific mechanism(s) causing the improvement any one rider might see. The improvements usually seen are too large (as many here will tell you) to be accounted for by a single mechanism and to know what is really going on will require some scientific study. It doesn't stop me from guessing but I don't "know". Phil Holman improved his track pursuit speed from 30 to 32 mph and his top speed from 35 to 38 mph in only 7 months. This improvement fits the speed improvement claim but "only" calculates to a little more than a 25% power increase. I can't tell you exactly what changes PC's made to allow him to see this improvement. There are several potential mechanisms; such as improving actual pedaling mechanical efficiency (demonstrated by the Luttrell study), increasing amount of muscle mass used (demonstrated by the Dixon study), or helping the rider choose a more efficient/powerful cadence. I expect each of these mechanisms is involved more or less to account for Phil's pretty remarkable improvement, depending upon which needed the most improvement in him, but I can't know. Frank |
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