pealling push up push down

Fday

Most new users do see changes starting from day one that they interpret as improvements even though they are actually going slower. In addition, they see improvement everytime they get on the bike the first few weeks or so. If they did not i suspect no one would make it through the transition.

Any muscle requires time to train, whether for strength or endurance. In addition, PC's are retraining the unconscious coordination (the brain). This also takes time, especially when you are undoing your current coordination and trying to learn another. It is impossible to explain to someone what we are doing differently from what you think you are doing now without your riding them. Just accept the fact that most who try them are positively impressed and feel they are worth the investment. Those who are most critical of them are those who have never tried them, for whatever reason.

n crowley

I still believe they make excellent training equipment for a beginner seeking a smooth pedalling style but as for increasing power with the circular style, I cannot accept that. If you need more power, you need a completely different technique.

n crowley

Could it be that the visible changes which they experience at the beginning is a feeling of the ability to apply power to the pedals in areas where they never did before such as the dead spot areas and rising leg. But that is when you are pedalling in slow motion as you state above with them going slower.The problem with this is that with a cadence of 90+, you have to return to your normal power application with no time for power application in these areas. From your own experience, how does power application with these cranks at a cadence of 100 differ from normal cranks.

Fday

I really don't understand the question or concern. At any particular cadence the rider has the same amount of time to provide power at any particular position as he does anywhere else. I know of no data to suggest that some muscles in the leg have a slower response time when stimulated or contraction speed after stimulation that might lead to such a concern. The only problem new PC'ers have is they are forced to use muscles that are not equivalently trained to all the usual pushing muscles, so until these muscles are equivalently trained, the rider finds themselves slowing the cadence down to give these muscles the rest they need between contractions. As these muscles are trained PC'ers can ride at any cadence they want. One track rider has told be he has gotten his PC's above 200 rpm. Nothing "forces" the rider to return to the old style just because the cadence come up. What forces the rider to return to the old style is the fatigue in these new muscles preventing them from continuing before they are equivalently trained, and this can only occur on regular cranks, where the old style is allowed.

Once the athlete is adequately trained on the device I the changes PC's cause in pedaling style, from what they would do before, is similar (a smoothing and balancing around the entire circle) whether the cadence is high or low.

n crowley

I am talking about applying effective power to the crank as an "ankler" does, it means having to continually change the direction through which the power is being applied. It is possible to use PC's and only enough energy to draw the cranks back, up and slide over the top but that will not be applying effective chain drive power to the cranks. With the ankling style it gets more difficult to apply effective power in all directions as cadence increases.

ric_stern/RST

Not to take anything away from Phil Holman, but that was Masters World Champs. You keep suggesting that a typical cat 2 or 3 rider --- of which i am one --- would increase 40% in power. That would enable me to place in the first few in the *ELITE SENIOR* world TT championships or in the case of track pursuiting likely put me in the medals in the elite senior world pursuit championships. Not the Masters. You seem to fail to understand this difference and the effect that gaining 40% power would have on the typical rider.

Now, if you want to suggest a more plausible 4% increase in power, at least that would be believable rather than the fairy tale rubbish you keep promoting.

Ric

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SolarEnergy

Even then, that is already quite significant.

ric_stern/RST

I know, but it's not as ridiculous as 40%

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SolarEnergy

Even then, that is already quite significant.

mitosis

Yeah, but at least people with experience would see it as within reach. Anyone with any experience (riding or coaching) would realise that 40% for a trained rider is impossible.

There is no evidence presented in this thread to show that the improvements in the riders quoted came from the cranks. The riders may well have improved whether they were using them or not.

Fday

So, you're saying that anklers pull up on the back stroke (while also pulling back on the bottom and pushing across the top) and PC'ers don't?

Whether PC'ers pull up or not I would love to see your data that shows that anklers pull up as I am not sure anyone has ever shown any rider in any style, who has trained on regular cranks, applies positive force around the entire circle. Reference please.

And, whatever your style not only is it more difficult to apply effective power on the upstroke as cadence increases it is also more difficult to apply it on the downstroke.

Fday

Now let me get this straight. You seem to think my product could produce a plausible 4% increase in power but you won't try it because you don't like the fact that I think that many can achieve a 40% increase. Therefore, you choose to forego improving that 4% because you think my claim is excessive. OK, I will guarantee that you will see a 4% increase in power in 3 months or your money back. Hey, wait, I already have that guarantee, except you don't have to even not achieve any specific improvement, you just don't have to like them for any reason. But, in the off chance over 6-9 months (if you use them as I suggest) if you see more better not tell anyone or they will think you are smoking something illegal.

Oh, and I did have a masters ride in the elite track championships this year after less than a year on the PC's. He was very disappointed with his result, rode about 10 seconds slower than he expected if I remember but it was his first major track event. He did pretty well at masters a couple of weeks later if I remember. Robert Black is the name. Check him out. I think he intends to be back next year.

whoawhoa

No, he's saying that maybe people wouldn't think you're spouting nonsense if you claimed 4%. I think most buyers are too smart to think simply by riding power cranks for several months that they will be able to win at an elite level.

Fday

I disagree, the same people would think a 4% claim in an elite to be an outrageous claim because they think the product can't work. If they thought the product really worked even at 4% they would discount my blabbering and get one anyhow as most of them have spent more money on products that do less than that.