Why do people feel the need to start and perpetuate DOPING rumors?

Originally Posted by mjolnir2k

No, it means that he has admitted to using EPO and any discussions about him using EPO are factual and therefore fair game.

It does not mean, however, that because one pro admitted to it that ALL are guilty of it, which is what tends to happen around here (one rider in particular).

That is what I am saying. Discuss those proven to be guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt to your hearts content, but don't paint everyone with the same brush for convenience sake.

Originally Posted by Flyer

In corporate America---the chief underwriters of professional and Olympic sport--we refer to it as a commercial advertisement---or if the message appears too disturbing or real---we call it; Shoot the messenger only if name calling, referring to them as a jealous idiot, full of hatred, pedophile and other hyper defensive and meanspirted tactics do not work to discredit the offender offering up public data to futher annoy people into connecting the dots.


And while I would love to believe that at least one professional TDF rider might not use medications/preparations on a daily basis---my personal research is that none do. Even the so-called clean riders uses corticosteroids, sleeping pills, and stimlulants from time to time. So a clean rider just uses lower dosages or lower frequencies than do the champion riders.

So too with the Greyhounds and ponies.

One friend of mine said to me; "It's all about the definitions" You can redefine doping into rejuvenation if you try hard enough.

Or two double Vodka Martinis every night is a NOT drinking problem for many alcoholics.

Who are we to judge them?

Originally Posted by Flyer

Right on Limerickman: I agree wholeheartedly, in theory only. Those waters are alread polluted so you cannot muddy them further.

As a practical matter, the "human survival psychcology" is nowhere more powerful than in elite cycling, a team sport of peer influence and determination.

I have had many professional racers tell me that so long as there are within doping compliance, they are clean.

If hematocrit level allowed is 50%---then all that matters if blood is drawn---and it seldom ever is---then their blood must be 50%. That's the rule.

Testosterone supplements are illegal---but they are nearly impossible to detect. So how is a cheater found out?

HGH is not detectable---and that makes it "legal" for many athletes.

Caffeine suppositories were very common ten years ago----the Festina Team certainly carried large volumes of caffeine along with the Belgian Mix (clear liquid of heroin, caffeine, cocaine, morphine and corticosteroids) in 10, 15, and milligram vials.

Today, with the improvement in HBOCs hematocrit levels can be run lower than 50% whilst gaining big boosts of endurance power.

With thinners (oral Asaflow) and vasodilators (viagra)
blood pressure, viscosity, hematocrit and blood flow/efficiency can all be dialed in for a Time Trial or for a 6 hour stage.

With all of these factors coming into play along with enormous financial pressure and peer pressure brought to bear-----It is not humanly possible for an athlete---no matter how talented or determined to avoid using these powerful trauma solutions.

If you tried to resist your fellow teammates would how a cow and resent you. Never trusting you and making loyal and selfless team work impossible.


That is why Tyler Hamiton can be on the very same squad as Oscar Camenzind and Alex Zulle. They are all of the very same ilk. They have no choice.

So too with David Millar and Cedric Vasseur.

So too as Cedric Vasseur and Lance Armstrong and Tyler Hamilton, three USPO alumni buddies.

And once you accept drugs as a solution---the very next thing you become is; A bald face liar! All doper deny using drugs---even when caught red handed. They never admit it----except in a very few extreme cases (Festina, TVM, and Millar) Nobody is measuring performance results by stimulants over HGH. You injesct whatever the doc tells you--and the rest is history. Winners, losers and worker bees.

Since testosterone, corticosteroids, stimulants and EPO and HGH can all be flown under doping controls--they are accepted as rejuvenators allowed in sport.

The peloton is one fraterity, not several. One unit of Gladiators. They all live by the sword and they die by the sword too.

btw: did you read that another cyclist died on Monday?

This time it was 43 year old Alexandre Zinoviev, now a USA citizen of Ohio. Moved here in 1990. He was a winner of several team time trial world championships as well as numerous stage victories in the Giro and other big stage races.

Alex died of intestinal cancer, not uncommon for cyclists. Anquetil died of pancreatic cancer, Lance had testicular, Lance two teammates have deceases which can morph to gastric cancer.

Anyway, we have 12 unnatural cycling deaths in 24 months now, not counting new illnesses.

Only the fans can debate which drugs are acceptable and which are the really good charges. The riders cannot tell---they just want success.

Originally Posted by mjolnir2k

Limmerickman we are actually closer in option on these matters as it seems you harbor less intent to sling mud at LA than to address a concern regarding ramapnt drug abuse within the Peleton. I would agree that the pressures to perform lead SOME (not all, but SOME) athletes to turn to dope. It happens in every single sport that pays for performance (and even some that don't).

I don't deny this is a ethical and medical issue that we all hope gets attention and resolution.

If there was more emphasis on the facts and less on the attempts to throw mud I think most people would be more inclined to view these comments as credible.

Originally Posted by limerickman

I wouldn't get too carried away with all this supposed concensus.

I believe that LA represents the worst aspect of double standards throughout
all professional sport, and not just cycling.
I believe he is a cheat.

As regards, the more general question of drugs in sport, we might well agree.

Originally Posted by ct2

Why do you think he is jealous of lance? What 'proof' do you have? Besides, there is waaay more to cycling than just lance.