Today's Forum Topics
Set as homepage
|
View
New Forum Topics Today's Forum Topics Set as homepage |
 |
|
|||||||
Welcome to CyclingForums.com You are currently viewing our website as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions. You will have to register before you can post to this thread. By joining our free online community you will have access to post new topics, communicate privately with other cyclingforums.com members (PM), respond to polls, upload photos and access other special features like product reviews and classifieds. |
 |
|
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
13-01.-2005, 05:42 AM
|
#31 | |
|
Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,487
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Quote:
In 1998, the TDF was here in Ireland - I met Indurain, spoke with him. Miguel never mentioned Armstrong - Armstrong's name never entered the conversation of potential competitors when Indurain was riding, nor did Armstrong's name enter Miguels conversation when he spoke about potential TDF winners. He spoke only of Jan Ullrich and his admiration for him. There were two other participants in our chat - Stephen Roche and Guido Bontempi. Neither Roche or Bontempi mentioned Armstrong as a potential anything. The alleged remarks about Indurain and the Ride of the Roses, are quoted from where ? Armstrong's book ? You see there's a myth perpetuated by Armstrong that somehow himself and Indurain are on friendly terms. This myth exists in Armstrong's head. But don't take my word for it - have a read what Indurain said about Armstrong in the book "Armstrong : Images of a Champion". I'll paraphrase it because I only read Indurains/Merckx comments and I had no intention of buying a book that supports a cyclist who has a lot of questions that needs answering. Indurain states in the first paragraph that when LA joined the peloton that neither he or anyone he knew, thought that LA was capable of winning a single TDF, never mind five T's DF. He finishes his statement by saying that although LA has now won 5 (at that times) T's DF, that history will show that he (Indurain) was first to achieve the five successive wins. It is clear to me that this statement alone by Indurain speaks volumes. Indurain's statement in that book reveals the doubts that permeate Armstrong's achievements. As regards you contention about VOmax etc - you earlier asked, could a 22/23 year old beat a reigning TDF champion ? I pointed out the 1996 TDF to you and how Jan Ullrich managed to beat a great TDF champion. You will recall that LA debuted in the TDF at the same age as Ullrich - but unfortunately his alleged "big engine" only allowed him to finish one TDF, out of four starts, and even then he was 1hour 30mins behind the eventual winner - his alleged amigo BigMig. And finally - this repeated claim that LA was a classics rider during the 1992-1996 period, is another misnomer. While it is factually correct to say he rode the classics during this time period, there is a paucity of wins during that period when his record is compared to his contemporaneous peers at that time. Armstrong was not only some distance behind the other classics rider of that time, his achievements were a universe away from the real classics specialists like Sean kelly, Rik Van Looy etc. |
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 06:08 AM
|
#32 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 997
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Quote:
>>Whether it is a misnomer or not is not really the point, the point is he rode and won a number big one day races during this period: the World Championships, the US Pro in Philly, Fleche Wallone, 2 stages in the Tour de France, 2nd in Liege-Bastogne-Liege, 2nd in Zurich as his second race as a pro rider--again not too shabby, etc--so better perhaps to say a one day racer who was on the way to transforming into a stage racer. |
|
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 06:45 AM
|
#33 |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 589
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
And he was dead last in his first pro race (San Sebastian Classic) - points to another somewhat dodgy improvement wouldn't you say?
|
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 07:02 AM
|
#34 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 997
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Quote:
No, it shows how fast Mr. Armstrong responds to a vastly increased training load, compared to his rivals. Lance had been over in the US doing much shorter races, and thinking he was king-shit to quote C Carmichael. This is the deal with Lance, his body responds well to increased loads and he recovers, the mark of a future stage racer. Besides, what drug in the world would result in someone going from dead last to second in a week's time? Not EPO, not HGH etc which all take weeks to work well. I believe it is the drug that fuels Lance all the time--desire to win, pride, ego, hating losing...a very powerful drug. And by the way, it was the same thing Indurain said when asked who to watch in the Tour of 99 and why... he said Lance, because he has got something to prove or words to that effect. |
|
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 07:49 AM
|
#35 | |
|
Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,487
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Quote:
There is no point in splitting hairs. All I want to know is how he managed to improve - that's all. His explanations don't ring to me - that's all I can say. I was a fan of his to 1996. If he is doping - and I think he is - I would suggest that his trying to advocate that his improvement is natural, compounds the crime of doping. No other cyclist has gone out of their way to suggest that they don't take drugs. And this is what rankles a lot of cycling fans, including me, when I hear LA telling us that what he does is natural, hard work etc. Is this hypocrisy on my part - the fact that I am prepared to tolerate it if a cyclist dopes but doesn't claim to be clean ? Perhaps. But I think that it is much worse to try to convince people that you're clean, when you are doping. |
|
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 08:23 AM
|
#36 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Mt. Diablo, California
Posts: 2,249
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Quote:
OK Lim, you're loosing your grip: Millar swore up and down he was clean until the gendermerie put the screws to him. Virenque did the same. In fact I can't think of a single rider that didn't challenge his A test positive. A few folks fessed up after being popped, but most deny it until the end. You certainly see and hear different things from the media on your side of the pond, but the only time I hear Lance say he's clean is when someone asks him. And they ask him or question him about it in practically every interview, including his own Discovery Channel presentation. |
|
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 09:04 AM
|
#37 |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 589
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
If Armstrong has to constantly assert his 'cleanness' because he is constantly being questioned about it, don't you have to ask yourself just why he arouses so much suspicion?
I don't recall Indurain being put under such scrutiny, even though he was the first rider to win 5 consecutive Tours. But Armstrong does himself no favours by constantly seeming to defend the code of silence - that zipped lips gesture at last year's Tour really spoke volumes, didn't it? |
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 09:15 AM
|
#38 | |
|
Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,487
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Quote:
Ok - maybe their is more media coverage here and David Walsh is on the airwaves here quite a bit. Also the discussion of drugs in sports - on this side of the world - is taken up mostly by cycling. I take your point - few if any cyclists admit that they dope when confronted. And you can apply that across all sports too. It seems to me that LA goes out of his way to claim to be clean. Maybe he is subject to more questioning over here. But I find it strange that, this is the case. LA has always alleged that the french media and the french authorities are out to get him. He has always maintained this. we here this in the media regularly. One week it's Dick Pound, then it's David Walsh, then it's a french TV crew. He claims that the french despise him and that's why he's getting all these questions. This does not make sense to me because i think that the french would have it in for others closer to home. Think of a local rivalry. The antagonism against a guy from a bordering state or bordering country, when that person is winning, is bound to be more vitriolic within the nation of say, france. Year after year, a Spaniard comes over the border and beats our guys, takes our title. Vitriolic levels would rise - you'd assume. Given the proximity - the need to "do down" the bloke who wins from a neighbouring country would be higher, wouldn't you think ? Why would a vast conspiracy gang up on the guy from far away and not the bloke from the neighbouring country ? There was never any conspiracy to do down BigMig - there is no conspiracy to do down LA either. He is asked valid questions because there is a valid doubt about him based on his prior performance levels. |
|
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 09:51 AM
|
#39 |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 63
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Limmerickman - get a hobby, Lance is clean. Maybe you should post another 18,000 messages about a bunch of rumors. Who are you to question anyone. Do you know Lance? Have you talked with him? Your life makes me sad.
|
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 10:43 AM
|
#40 |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 589
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
bspeedy - Limerickman and others of us don't happen to buy into the unquestioning adulation surrounding Lance.Inc and prefer to be a little less credulous and a little more questioning of the corporate phenomenon that is Lance Armstrong. Surely his 10 year association with Dr Ferrari (only reluctantly severed after the 'sporting fraud' ruling and 'under review') gives you pause? Or perhaps the fact that his coach, Chris Carmichael, made an out of court settlement to Strock and Kaiter who alleged he had been involved in systematic doping when coaching the US Junior team (a team that Armstrong was a member of)?
You will claim this all to be circumstantial and just because Ferrari may have worked in one way with other riders doesn't mean he worked that way with Armstrong. But surely this is something to debate? Surely we should question our heroes when they become involved with questionable personnel? Don't you feel public figures should be held accountable? Or do you truly feel they they should not be questioned and are beyond reproach? Personally, I'd like to think that the most dominant name in the sport was not only beyond reproach but wanted to stand up for ethical standards in the sport - instead of which he attacks Dick Pound for his hardline anti-doping stance, rides down Simeoni, attacks whistle blowers and then claims he's never heard of EPO (hilariously enough he once claimed that he was World Champ in 1993 when no one had ever heard of EPO - for such a hard nosed business man, he's awfully awfully naive about the biggest problem in the sport, isn't he?). Fine, you disagree with this viewpoint. You buy wholeheartedly into the 'miracle', the work ethic, the corporateness of Armstrong.Inc. Others of us don't. Your gullibility makes me sad. But I'd be far too polite to say so. |
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 10:45 AM
|
#41 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,435
 |
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Quote:
And do you know Lance and know exactly what he puts into his body? I'm a Lance fan myself, but there really is know way for any of us to decisively know one way or the other, right now, whether he is clean or not. And lay off the personal attacks. I disagree with Limerickman on LA, mostly, but I respect his excellent knowledge of cycling. There's no reason to make it personal.
__________________
Harry |
|
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 11:08 AM
|
#42 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Mt. Diablo, California
Posts: 2,249
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Quote:
During the Festina affair and the '98 TDF fiasco a lot of non-sport type reporters (mostly French I think) discovered that the "drugs in cycling" story had real potential as investigative jounalism. When the '99 Tour started twice as many showed up, hoping to uncover some new scandal and write the ultimate exposé that would sell newspapers or books or ad space on their web sites. Exposing France's favorite son doesn't sell - exposing the champion sells- so they mostly assumed that the drug story was there and gambled that Armstrong would crack if they kept pummelling him with the questions. So I DO think the French press are out to get him - not because they despise him but because they all want to write the story that'll make them famous, and no one would make for a better story than him. Lance is the only guy to have won the Tour since the '98 scandal so he's the main guy they pick on. Watch what happens when someone else wins. BTW, pro baseball is really cracking down on dopers - if you get busted 4 times there's a one-year suspension! Most of the PED stories here have died away since the Olympics are over. |
|
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 11:30 AM
|
#43 | |
|
Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,487
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Quote:
You know nothing about my life. I have never had the pleasure of getting a reply from Armstrong - even though I tried to put these issues to him. He probably thinks that his is the victim of a witch hunt. |
|
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 11:41 AM
|
#44 | |
|
Community Team
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: at the bar
Posts: 12,487
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Quote:
Diablo - perhaps Lance Armstrong has been targetted by the French, unfairly. I just think that, given local/national rivalry, a bloke for the neighbouring country would have been more readily targetted, like Indurain or Ullrich, for winning the French TDF. But there has never been a whisper concerning Indurain/Ullrich. Maybe LA has been targetted and I'm wrong. You've lived in Europe and you know how passionate the French and Spanish are : winning their national event is a matter of prestige to them. So when a bloke form the neighbouring country starts to dominate (Indurain), you'd assume that the need to dethrone him would make him a target. As I say I don't know LA - I hear that on a personal level, he's a very pleasant man and I respect the fact that he has raised millions of dollars for people who are very ill. It's in a sporting sense that I have a difficulty rationalising his explanation for his improvement. As regards Baseball and the one year suspension - that does seem like double standards. But I suppose with the money that is in baseball, they have to be seen to do something to stop PED's, if only in a lacklustre way. (unfortunately I don't know enough about baseball to have a discussion with you). |
|
|
|
|
|
14-01.-2005, 12:14 PM
|
#45 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Mt. Diablo, California
Posts: 2,249
|
Re: Armstrong has been tinkered with!!
Quote:
See that's why I'm saying it was the non-cycling jounalists that are all out digging for dirt and trying to write the big scandal story. The cycling reporters may have been turning the other way about drug stories and the cycling reporters may have too much respect for someone of Indurain's dominance to try to knock him down - especially since there haven't been any Frenchies in contention since the Hinault years anyway (well maybe Jaja but only in French wet dreams). But the non-cycling reporters aren't restrained by hero worship or any feelings about how bike racing's public perception may be tarnished by such stories, so they're free to cast dispersions on whomever they think might make a good headline. Whispers about Ulle - yup. He came out of the East German development system that was famous for doping atheletes without their knowledge and researching ways to defeat the drug tests. He's known to use recreational drugs. He goes from lard ass to buns of steel in 6 weeks every spring. There have been whispers. But he won the Tour BEFORE the Festina scandal so the non-cycling reporters weren't there to probe. Remember Delgado? That was like a non-story... nobody cared. Things are different now, watch what happens if Jan ever wins again. |
|
|
|
|
Linear Mode
