Armstrong has been tinkered with!!

DarrylZ

I did'nt even finish reading all the posts, but really does the witch hunt ever stop, surely there must be more interesting topics to diseminate.

The bottom line is that unless some hidden information comes to light that is reliable, no one will ever know the truth.

Would i be dissapointed if he where dopping, yes.
Would my opinion of him change, not much.
At the end of it all and i actually feel sorry for all the banned cyclists that we as society have driven the need for success to such a level that they would even consider jeopordising their health for fame & fortune.

And lastly no matter how much drugs you take, the rider still has to get out of bed and onto that bike to train and race. No amount of drugs will win on their own without any discomfort or will to do so by a rider.

Do i think doping is wrong, hell yes.
Do i empathise for the pressures to succeed in their chosen careers, hell yes.

__________________
If your not bleeding, it's not hurting

micron

'Physically I'm not more gifted than anyone else' is Armstrong's own evaluation of himself in his first Tour, where he lost 6 minutes to Indurain in a TT (even though Armstrong felt he could TT well) and then 21 and 28 minutes on 2 days in the Alps. And this from a rider who was apparently passionate and focused and whose greatest self criticism was that he hadn't ridden very smartly.

The upper body bulk from swimming had already begun to tone down through his emphasis on cycling as a sport.

On the TT 'when you're 30 you're not going to be 9 minutes faster than you are at 21' - and yet that's almost exactly whatr has happened in Armstrong's case.

So, he lost some weight through the cancer and learned to ride smartly and that meant that he could win 6 Tours straight and ride so much faster at 30 than at 21?

limerickman

6 minutes to Indurain - just about sums it up.

I watched him closely between 1992-1996, because he was an english speaking rider and naturally there was an interest to see how a rider from a non-traditional cycling nation would get on.
Rewatched the tape of the 1995 TDF last night after making some posts here
and it is shocking to see the difference between pre-cancer and post-cancer
ability.

One shot of them on stage 9 Le Grand Bornard - La Plagne.
Alez Zulle is winning the stage - with Indurain coming in second and Pantani
4th.
The camera is panning the finish of the stage - Dufaux, Jalabert pass the line.
Zberg, Totshnig, Ekimov, and others come through.
The camera switiches back out on the course and there's our friend blowing really hard and in a terrible state.
He crosses the line in with Bryneel (!) nearly 18 mins after Alex Zulle has finished.
He's dead on his feet.

Alpe D'Huez 1995 : I was at that stage - Pantani and Indurain blast up the mountain.
Pantani wins in 5hours odd.
Indurain closely behind him.
They were flying.
Rominger, Jalabert, Zulle all follow losing a couple of minutes.
Again, I saw Lance Armstrong passing me by - blowing really hard.
He eventually finishes nearly 19 mins after Pantani, in 56th place.

Both snapshots here are reflective of LA's real ability, I suggest.
What we have seen since 1999 bears no relation to 1992-1996.

hombredesubaru

Well, I think the arguments made above are full of holes, so I will point out a few.

Lance has one of the biggest aerobic engines around, always has. Read his book. He was tested at the Cooper Aerobics Center (the folks who invented the words aerobics BTW) as a teenager, perhaps 15, 16 17 years old and his VO2Max stands as the highest ever done there.

When Lance, later after winning a bunch of Tours, says he is not that gifted or unusual, it is not true and he says that for a reason! He wants people to know how hard he has worked post cancer to get the results. He makes no bones about what a lazy, slacker he was before cancer. Check out some videos in 1994 and 1995 and see his beer gut in some of the classics! He also says stuff like that to sell the image and to screw with competitors heads. Check this link re his LT and power:
http://www.jt10000.com/team/events/carmichael99/1.htm

Now, you dont win Tours just with a big VO2MAx, but it is a prerequisite.

As for the argument about 6 minutes and Indurain. Someone please check out how many 22-23 year olds were in the Tour this year and how they did against Lance. Someone please check out where Basso, Vino, Ullrich were in the Tours when they were 23. Ullrich was winning the U23 world road race, the same year Lance won the Worlds in Oslo against Big Mig.

SO yes, the weight loss, the improved pedalling technique and cadence, (check the videos of his cadence and sloppy pedalling while winning the Tour Dupont vs 1999 Tour), the specific and consistent training, doing more training than the competitors, and more desire DO all add up to the difference.

Lance, as is commonly known, trains harder than a lot of racers can race. Ask Roberto,Tyler, and Chechu. Coming out of a mountain training week in early June before the Tour in 2001, they came out with tendinitis in knees due to repetetive punishing climbing intervals in the cold--thats why they were wrapped in guaze and bandages!!

So you either believe the guy or you dont. As for being there and seeing him come in 19 minutes down on Pantani on the Alpe, thats really pretty good for a classics rider, especially since Pantani's hematocrit was probaly higher than his VO2Max in the days before the 50% rule. Where did the classics riders guys come in on Plateau de Beille this year if they were in the race at all--lets see--Weseman, Backstedt, Hammond, Rebellin? I saw where they came in on Luz Ardiden in 2004, 30-40 minutes later!!

No, Lance is clean and folks just cant stand it. Too bad, he will never ride a Tour again.

Peace

micron

In 3 years, Armstrong improves on the climbs by 3 minutes. After surviving cancer he comes back and has improved by about 25 minutes. Please.

Ferrari, Carmichael (who was at the 84 Olympics when the US cycling team blood doped), Mark Gorski (gold medallist in 84), - even Bruyneel was on the ONCE team that Alex Zulle accused of having a systematic doping programme in the 90s - Armstrong has been surrounded by close confederates with intimate knowledge of doping.

The Tour needed a miracle after 98 and they got one. I'm not making any new arguments here - though don't you love the way that 2 members of Armstrong's inner circle were on the Olympic team that cynically and systematically blood doped even though it was banned under US cycling rules - but I suppose I just want to put my hand up and say that I'm not a gullible Lance lover...

jcthomasjr

I think that some drugs have been found in some cases. What or where are these lots of drugs you are referring to? Regarding your statement about the Bristol Myers Squibb advertisement, you state they brag that Lance "uses" their products? I was under the impression that he may have used their products while undergoing treatment. He still uses their products?

I agree with some of your points, but I do have to say that your opinion, which you are entitled to, is a little strong for me at times. I personally do not think that I am a naive cycling fan, but if you or someone else wants to think that I am, so be it. Doesn't mean that I am though.

As I have said before, I am a cancer survivor myself, and I must say that my mindset changed following cancer. Now, this does not mean I am going to automatically become a better family man, or a more caring person, or a better cyclist. I like to think that I have though. But, I will say that I am more driven and live life a little more fully than prior to being diagnosed with cancer.

The fact that Lance returned to winning bike races does not make him guilty of anything, other than wanting to win bike races. Unless you are directly connected to him I would say you know nothing about his "family time". I have separated from my wife following cancer treatment and I am a cyclist, but that does not automatically make me a doper or mean I am not devoted to my kids and family. Sure, I am not Lance Armstrong, hell, I don't even consider myself a fan of his, and I surely don't know everything that he does. I don't want to know everything that he does because he has his life and his reasons for doing things and I have mine. I do think he works hard at training and I do not think that all pro bike racers train as hard as he does. I do believe that hard work pays off and some people are capable of working harder than others.

Just my opinion.

__________________
Like each bike ride, life is a journey.

limerickman

He had such an engine that he managed to finish only one TDF start, out of four starts, between 1992-1996.

His record in other stage races does not denote a great engine - more like an engine that simply had neither the capacity or ability to succeed at the very highest level of cycling.

Revisionism in his books is breathtaking.

Why did he tell David Walsh in 1993 - "Inside the Peloton" book - that he worked hard, trained hard, prepared as well as he could possibly do ?
If he was working so hard - and had such a great engine, explain 1992-1996 ?

Forget his books/propoganda - and look at the statistics.




How about Ullrich taking 3mins 30 secs out of Indurain in the Les Arcs stage 7 in the 1996 TDF ?
Ullrich was only 22 at the time.
Does this qualify as a comaprison between a 22/23 year old and a TDF champion ?

Let's see now - how about 1996 ITT Bordeaux - St Emilion.
You remember that - don;t you ?
Maybe you're like Zapper and Co - fairweather blowins to our sport ?
Let me remind you - Jan Ullrich in his first TDF over 63km ITT course beat Miguel Indurain by nearly one minute.
A rookie beating the man who dominated the TDF since 1990.
A rookie beating the greatest ITT'ist ever.
A rookie beating a man who would go on to win the Olympic TT title three weeks later.

Or how about Bourg St Maurice - Val D'Isere in 1996.
Individual TT.
Stage 8.
Ullrich finished in the same time as Miguel Indurain (well there was a six second difference - NOT SIX MINUTES !).

Your hero lost 6 mins to the same man a year before in an ITT.

And LA's world title was won when the major players either dropped out or didn't bother to start the race in 1993.




You're taking what he claims in his book as verbatim - he alleges that he trains harder than every other cyclist.
Can he prove this ?
How does he know how hard other people train ?
He doesn't train any harder than other cyclists - and for him to try to claim this is derogatory.
Invoking Tyler Hamilton as a witness for the defence ain't a smart move either.

19 minutes down for a classic rider isn't bad on the Alp, I'll concede.
Except that LA wasn't a very successful classic rider, now was he ?
You've seen his record and it doesn't measure up to the Classic riders of that time and is a mile away from the all time classic riders such as Sean Kelly.
The other classic riders that day - who didn't manage to lose time to Pantani to the same extent as LA and who were still contenders overall in that years TDF - include Tony Rominger, Alex Zulle, Broachard, Tafi, Zberg, Lelli.
Classic riders all.

As regards the performances of the 2004 one dayers in the TDF - cycling has fundamentally changed.
Classic riders ride as part of their team.
As I recall LA was Motorola's great white hope for the TDF between 1992-1996.

TiMan

This makes a lot of sence! Good stuff.

Lance sure the hell has doped...give me a break people!
The routine practice in the USA in Cat 1-2 is to dope with your own blood. Few comes into a big race with a natural crit....eveyone wants to get to 49-50%.
To recover from very hard training some of the better riders have a docs consult saying that they have low natural test levels and are hypogonadal and then they can legally take injections to keep their testosterone levels up into the high normal range. This helps a TON in recuperation.
Very hard training hammers testosterone DOWN bro's....
many are on HGH to help in the recovery process too.

Armstrong makes me sick...

The last tour champ that didn't dope was Lemond(maybe Indurain) both had more talent in their little fingers than Armstrong has in his entire being.

Merckx was BY FAR the best rider ever and to compair Armstrong to him, as many have, is a joke to say the least....Armstrong has been tinkered with big time bro's.

micron

Andreas Kloeden recently gave an interview to ProCycling.

He says that although Lance has written pages of cycling history it disturbs him that Lance gives the impression that he is the only rider who works, the only rider who reconnoitres the tour stages etc. Kloden says "What does he think I do then? I work hard, invest time in my job. Every cyclist does the same it annoys me when he stands on the podium and says "I, Lance Armstrong do everything for my sport."

I imagine Kloeden isn't the only rider who works just as hard as Armstrong. So what is making the big difference? I wonder...

kennf

Under yours and Flyer's logic, does this prove without a doubt that Ullrich was doping at the time?

limerickman

Actually I would say that Ullrich, because he has been consistent, is less likely to have doped.

The issue here is the improvement - LA improved beyond comprehension.
That's the difference between him and Ullrich.
Ullrich has been consistently a great rider.
LA hasn't been.

I look at the statistics and Jan Ullrich was a talent visible on the radar before he became professional.
We saw him here in the early 90's as an amateur and his potential was being talked about.

Miguel Indurain himself told me in 1998, that out of the entire peloton that he rated Jan as the next great champion.
He said that he feared no one from the new generation, apart from Jan when he was cycling.
Miguel always took account of Zulle, Rominger, Jalabert, Pantani and Riis when he was racing - his peers.
he didn't watch anyone else other than Jan also.

limerickman

Kloden article was very interesting.
Did you read that Kloden thinks that Armstrong hates Pevenage/Ullrich ?
And what about LA's comment to Kloden after he beat him in the sprint in the 2004 - about it being not personal ?

Kloden made some very astute points.
He said that he never heard a cyclist being so abused as LA is by the (international) spectators at the TDF.
Kloden felt that Indurain would never be treated this way by the public.

my estimation of kloden has gone up after reading that interview.