What would it take to convince you Lance did not dope?

waxbytes

Or any other pro athlete? Many posts have been made on this and other Forums arguing about who is or isn't doping, who said what to whom and why etc. So suspicion is everywhere in spite of test results. From WADA's Dick Pound on down everyone seems to be intent on proving guilt.

So, what would constitute innocence? What could a winning pro cyclist do to prove his palmares legitimate? What do we want of our athletes?

Or is every pro a doper, with some proven guilty, and others just not caught?

tcklyde

There is absolutely nothing that will convince the doubters that LA is clean. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Nil. A future athelete might offer to have his blood preserved, advocate stricter doping controls, and pass the tests -- to start.

But the bottom line is that as long as there as been cycling there has been dope. It was there in the beginning and the middle. It was there before EPO and before there was a test for EPO and it's still, quite obviously from this last season, with us now. If you have a cycling hero, from Tyler Hamilton to Eddy Merckx, your hero is probably a doper (Yes, the great Merckx had several positives). The doubters have good reason to be skeptical. Cheating is disgustingly prevalent. I'm hopeful things are getting better, but who knows. As for Lance, I like to think that he wins clean. Same with Ulle and Basso and Cunego and Vino and O'Grady and Zabel and Heras and everyone. But who knows.

I'm not sure there is any sane way to watch cycling if you believe that everyone is doping or if you believe your enemies are doping. I assume everyone's innocence until a positive and then try to forget them. Oh, and it doesn't hurt to remember that if it's too good to be true, it might not be true (cf. Santi Perez winning the final TT at the Vuelta).

__________________
Harry

limerickman

Your yarn is quite plausible.
But it has one major failing.

ONLY LANCE ARMSTRONG WRITES BOOKS/ARTICLES TRYING TO CONVINCE US THAT HE IS CLEAN.

No other cyclist goes out of their way to say black is white.

As Shakespeare said "Me thinketh he protesteth too much".

micron

You can't help thinking that an athlete as clean as Armstrong claims to be would volunteer to have his blood frozen for future testing, or publish his haematocrit every time its tested or a whole raft of other measures. You know, lead by example, encourage other riders to be equally transparent. Instead, he chases down riders who dare to criticise him (Simeoni, Bassons - he also went to Bassons' hotel room and asked him to leave the race) and is ever evasive in interviews: when asked whether he dopes/has doped he ritually replies 'I have never tested positive' (and we all know how strong a defence that is). My point is, he hardly leads by example.

Look at the Bassons situation - Armstrong asks the self-styled 'Mr Clean' to get off the race. This he claims to be the 'will of the peloton', and Armstrong himself is furious with Bassons (as he will be with Simeoni). But Armstrong is a strong willed character who rules his team with a rod of iron - why bow to the peloton and the code of omerta? Why not take the opportunity to say that it's time for the sport to clean up and that you support Bassons' stance 100%?

limerickman

Ian Thorpe - the Aussie swimmer has told the authorities that they can retain his blood test samples indefinitely.
This is to allow the testers to catch up with the men in white coats.
Thorpe obviously doesn't dope - and he is sufficiently confident to allow his samples to be retained.
This indicates a clean athlete to me.

Armstrong's drug stance is, at best, ambiguous.

I wonder how many times he is actually tested ?
Forget the propoganda in his book about his alleged testing - I'd like to see UCI/WADA/USCF stats about how often he is tested.
The UCI testing has been proven to be inept - David Millar was never failed at test, yet the French civil authorities were able to find drugs in his home !
So forget the UCI for the moment - their findings are spurious.
I'd like to see an independent agency do the testing.

Did you also notice the mass migration of cyclists from Southern France to Girona ?
As soon as the French civil authorities decided to stop the dopeurs, they all moved to Girona (Spain) where the Spanish civil authorities show less interest
in apprehending dopeurs.
Pity that the Spaniards aren't as interested.

Espada9

US riders started moving to Gerona in the EARLY 90s, have you ever been there?
Probably the ONLY city in Europe I would live in (San Sebastian being the other).

The problem with “conspiracy theory” mentality is that is goes against human nature, if there was some secret doping conspiracy out there, it would go against human nature that it would remain secret indefinitely, someone would eventually talk, its just human nature (just look at how many criminals get caught because someone talks).

Lance is guilty because you WANT him to be guilty, shows the moral relativism of you euro scum. It must suck to have to live out a miserable life of cynicism.

hombredesubaru

Lance's blood and urine, as well as the entire USPS team, WAS frozen from the 2000 TdF. Then the inquiry occured about actovegin from 2000 onwards, the entire team's samples were subjected to all new tests not available in 2000, e.g. EPO etc, and all were clean.

So deal with it.

DV1976

People have talked and as I recall it is you that mentioned Virenque's confession in another thread (just an example). Other than that your perception of human nature is rather flawed as there is hardly any proof for your claim above...

The fact that you would only live in Girona out of all European cities shows that you know shit about Europe and Europeans so it would be best if you kept such biased comments to yourself

davidbod

LA statement from Jan 20, 2005 - categorical denial of ever having used performance enhancing drugs and tested 22 times during the 2004 season alone. Also what happens to the samples that ASO, UCI, WADA and USADA take. Surely they are kept for some period of time, perhaps years, and could be available as future tests come on-line.

"Let me make one thing emphatically clear: I believe in clean and fair competition. As I have said before, I do not use -- and have never used -- performance-enhancing drugs. I am disappointed in the judge's decision to open this investigation without having talked to me first."

"I will make myself available anytime and anywhere to meet with the investigators in this case. They are also welcome to review my long history of tests for performance-enhancing drugs, which I have never failed. Last year alone I was tested 22 times by ASO, the UCI, WADA and USADA. I will be competing in Paris-Nice in March. I am confident my name will be cleared, and I look forward to racing in France for years to come."

Espada9

I’ve spent plenty of time in Europe and I still think for the most part is sucks ass, oh sure there is the nice “history” part and the fact that unlike the US, you’re on your own to due what you want (too many laws and “safety” precautions in the US).

But I think for the most part Europe is about 40 years behind the US politically and your standard of living in most countries is one step above cave men!

micron

Espada, by all means construct an argument as to why we cycnical Europeans should learn to stop worrying and belive Armstrong - but to think we all envy you Bush and living in a country that despise blacks, gays and women and tolerates sporting heroes, like Carl Lewis and Barry Bonds, who are blatant dopers - Espada, you're welcome to it.