First Commuting Fall

Eiron

Tony Raven wrote:

> Flotsam and Jetsam: unclaimed odds and ends

An early musical duo, not entirely unlike Flanders and Swann.

Michael MacClancy

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 13:14:50 +0000, Tony Raven wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>>
>> No, it's flotsam when it washes up on the shore. It only becomes jetsam
>> when someone throws it (e.g. for their dog to catch). Think about what
>> 'flot' and 'jet' mean.
>>
>
> Nope:
>
> <Chambers English Dictionary>
>
> Flotsam: goods lost by shipwreck and found floating on the sea
> Jetsam: goods jettisoned from a ship and washed up on the shore
> Flotsam and Jetsam: unclaimed odds and ends
>
> </Chambers English Dictionary>
>
> Tony

But as dkahn400 pointed out Chambers isn't totally correct either.

% jetsam is cargo or other
% material thrown overboard (jettisoned) to lighten a vessel in danger of
% sinking.

There's nothing in the proper definition that says it has to be washed up
on shore. It doesn't have to be floating, either, as it could be on the
bottom of the sea.

--
Michael MacClancy

Tony Raven

Michael MacClancy wrote:
>
> But as dkahn400 pointed out Chambers isn't totally correct either.
>
> % jetsam is cargo or other
> % material thrown overboard (jettisoned) to lighten a vessel in danger of
> % sinking.
>
> There's nothing in the proper definition that says it has to be washed up
> on shore. It doesn't have to be floating, either, as it could be on the
> bottom of the sea.
>

For brevity I omitted the part of Chambers which notes that, according
to some, jetsam can also be goods from a wreck that remain under water.

The Oxford Dictionary* concurs with Chambers that jetsam is washed up on
shore but in any case I am minded to prefer Chambers and the OED as
definitive over the unreferenced views of dkahn400 (sorry d, nothing
personal)

Tony

* Jetsam, n, Goods thrown overboard from a ship to lighten it & washed
ashore.

Tony Raven

Tony Raven wrote:
>
> For brevity I omitted the part of Chambers which notes that, according
> to some, jetsam can also be goods from a wreck that remain under water.
>

P.S. Apparently correctly known as "lagan" according to the OED.

Tony

Michael MacClancy

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:17:48 +0000, Tony Raven wrote:


>
> The Oxford Dictionary* concurs with Chambers that jetsam is washed up on
> shore but in any case I am minded to prefer Chambers and the OED as
> definitive over the unreferenced views of dkahn400 (sorry d, nothing
> personal)
>
> Tony
>
> * Jetsam, n, Goods thrown overboard from a ship to lighten it & washed
> ashore.

;-)

Personally I'm minded to prefer the definition of the Maritime and
Coastguard Agency:

"Definition of Wreck

Wreck is defined in section 255 of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995 as
including "jetsam, flotsam, lagan and derelict found in or on the shores of
the sea or any tidal water"


Jetsam: goods cast overboard in order to lighten a vessel which is in
danger of being sunk, not withstanding that afterwards it perishes.
Flotsam: goods lost from a ship which has sunk or otherwise perished which
are recoverable by reason of their remaining afloat.
Lagan: goods cast overboard from a ship which afterwards perishes, buoyed
so as to render them recoverable
Derelict: property, whether vessel or cargo, which has been abandoned and
deserted at sea by those who were in charge of it without any hope of
recovering it."


--
Michael MacClancy

Tony Raven

Michael MacClancy wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 14:17:48 +0000, Tony Raven wrote:
>
>
>
>>The Oxford Dictionary* concurs with Chambers that jetsam is washed up on
>>shore but in any case I am minded to prefer Chambers and the OED as
>>definitive over the unreferenced views of dkahn400 (sorry d, nothing
>>personal)
>>
>>Tony
>>
>>* Jetsam, n, Goods thrown overboard from a ship to lighten it & washed
>>ashore.
>
>
> ;-)
>
> Personally I'm minded to prefer the definition of the Maritime and
> Coastguard Agency:
>

Since we are talking about English usage here I think my OED trumps your
MCA. As we all know, definitions for official purposes can be somewhat
different to their usage in normal language. For example I doubt most
of us would accept the UCI definition as defining what a bicycle is or
is not in preference to the OED.

Tony

dkahn400

Tony Raven wrote:

> Flotsam: goods lost by shipwreck and found floating on the sea
> Jetsam: goods jettisoned from a ship and washed up on the shore

I believe that jettisoned goods that have sunk to the seabed are also
technically jetsam.

> Flotsam and Jetsam: unclaimed odds and ends

This is of course the usage that has passed into the common language.
--
Dave...

dkahn400

Tony Raven wrote:

> I am minded to prefer Chambers and the OED as definitive over the
> unreferenced views of dkahn400 (sorry d, nothing > personal)
No offence taken.

--
Dave...

dkahn400

Tony Raven wrote:

> Since we are talking about English usage here I think my OED
> trumps your MCA.
I bet Padders is sorry now that he fell off.

--
Dave...

Paul - xxx

Padders composed the following ...

> Oh, and no helmet. Although a knee guard of some sort might have been
> handy.

Heheheh, we often wear shin pads and knee guards (with a helmet) when
off-roading, and they _really do_ work.

Get well soon.

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
(8(!) Homer Rules ...
"A tosser is a tosser, no matter what mode of transport they're using."

Paul - xxx

dkahn400 composed the following ...
> Tony Raven wrote:
>
>> Since we are talking about English usage here I think my OED
>> trumps your MCA.
> I bet Padders is sorry now that he fell off.

Don't you just love thread drift (wood) ..

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
(8(!) Homer Rules ...
"A tosser is a tosser, no matter what mode of transport they're using."

Padders

Steve Peake <spam@puppet-head.co.uk> wrote in
news:keis8yajam0u$.w1ai2wzvm4ug.dlg@40tude.net:

> That would be the Thames footpath , only a few sections are actually
> cycle path. The real cycle path is teddington lock across the park,
> which is about 2 miles shorter than the river to where your going.
>
> Of course you could call it towpath.

Really? Oops

I know it's quicker through the park, but it isn't quite as much fun.
Although I must admit to liking the traffic free return journey after
work.

> I would be more worried by what Thames water puts in the river.

A good point, there's been a lot of nasty overflow in the not so distant
past.

--
Padders

Padders

"Paul - xxx" <notcheckedever@hotmail.com> wrote in news:32tl10F3pihdiU1
@individual.net:

> dkahn400 composed the following ...
>> Tony Raven wrote:
>>
>>> Since we are talking about English usage here I think my OED
>>> trumps your MCA.
>> I bet Padders is sorry now that he fell off.
>
> Don't you just love thread drift (wood) ..

More painful than my knee ;O

--
Padders

Dave Kahn

Padders wrote:
> "Paul - xxx" <notcheckedever@hotmail.com> wrote in news:32tl10F3pihdiU1
> @individual.net:
>
>>dkahn400 composed the following ...

>>>I bet Padders is sorry now that he fell off.
>>
>>Don't you just love thread drift (wood) ..
>
> More painful than my knee ;O
>

Does it still hurtsam?

--
Dave...

Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the
future of the human race. - H. G. Wells